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Defence- yes or no
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Post by
MegaVolt
agil is by far the best
avoidance (=mitigation)
stat And yet another contender for the '
Mr. Baddy
' title.
Since when
avoidance = mitigation
?
Meh...
And yet another contender for the "
Mr. Smartass
" title.
Of cause avoidance is mitigation. By avoiding an attack you are mitigating the overall damage. Duh?
Post by
176018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
they're the standard tank terms, you may as well accept them. avoidance = avoiding things completely and mitigation = negating a portion of the things that you're unable to avoid.
This. Please just leave it at that.
And, MegaVolt? He already has the title. He stole it from foleynuts.
Post by
Lightrain
agil is by far the best
avoidance (=mitigation)
stat And yet another contender for the '
Mr. Baddy
' title.
Since when
avoidance = mitigation
?
Meh...
Actually, for druids,
crit
=mitigation, which includes
agility
.
To the rather lame arguement....
Stam is a base stat, and in the case for tanks is nothing more than a buffer zone, same as on dps and healers. It's
not
mitigation, and it's
not
avoidance.
That's all stam is. It has nothing to do with damage reducing whatsoever.
I see
Aadra's
addon is working
well
.
I
think I figured out where
it
is. How is
mine
working?
To the OP-
The only defense you should ever possibly have is from rings, cloak, or neck. Otherwise, you should have zero defense.
Post by
Aadramelekh
they're the standard tank terms, you may as well accept them. avoidance = avoiding things completely and mitigation = negating a portion of the things that you're unable to avoid.
This. Please just leave it at that.
And, MegaVolt? He already has the title. He stole it from foleynuts.
Oh no... Shhhhh! >.< If
foley
peeks in here and sees that he's gonna assassinate me >_>
Actually, for druids, crit=mitigation, which includes agility.
Correct, but that was not the issue in question, thus this is irrelevant.
Post by
pelf
Crit and attack power, thus strength as well as agility and crit rating -- blah blah blah. As Aa said, but not exactly: irrelevant to the point (though not irrelevant).
Post by
MegaVolt
they're the standard tank terms, you may as well accept them. avoidance = avoiding things completely and mitigation = negating a portion of the things that you're unable to avoid.
Let me put it like this:
In a boss fight there are two relevant quantities. The first is the average incoming damage (which can be calculated by looking at the bosses total damage output and at the tanks overall damage mitigation) and the second is the maximum spike potential.
The first one puts a constant strain on the healers. To make it easier for them a tank has to lower the
average
incoming damage. Dodge as well as armor are not fundamentally different in that regard, they both mitigate the overall damage.
Spikes are a temporary but strong strain on the healers - that's why they are countered by stacking stam to give the healers more time to react.
Avoidance is obviously one way of mitigating the overall incoming damage. Denying this just makes no sense at all.
If you want to be nitpicking then you really shouldn't say that avoidance isn't mitigation. You should say that avoidance is only one among many possibilities to mitigate damage and that the equality (=) was misplaced in the strictly mathematical sense. But then again I didn't write down an equation but some text and from the context (and from the literal meaning of "to mitigate") it was quite obvious what I was saying.
Long story short: What the hell are you complaining about?
Post by
Heckler
Avoidance is obviously one way of mitigating the overall incoming damage. Denying this just makes no sense at all.
I don't think anyone is denying this, I think they're just pointing ot that you're using a
non-standard
definition for the word mitigation (Defining it in terms of overall damage taken rather than in terms of one incoming attack).
I agree it
could
be applied this way, but if you're going to call anything that makes you tank better "mitigation", then it loses its value as a
categorical
term. The
standard
defnition for mitigation are stats that mitigate incoming damage, literally -- using it in some other context will only lead to confusion and annoying semantic-argument posts like this one.
(As a counter-point example, why don't we just call everything "avoidance" stats, because they help you
avoid
death? -- the point of the terms is to lump the two concepts into definable categories: those that help you avoid a single attack, and those that help you mitigate the damage of a non-avoided single attack)
Post by
pelf
As Heckler says, it's not because we're trying to shut down semantic arguments -- god knows I love those. It's so we can communicate. Instead of saying "Dodge, Parry, Miss" we can say "Avoidance" and so on. We all agree on the definition of
umbrella
, so we can use it to communicate instead of saying "stretched cloth over collapsible, rigid framework with a handle that can be used to keep rain or sun off of us" in conversation.
See?
Post by
Lightrain
As Heckler says, it's not because we're trying to shut down semantic arguments -- god knows I love those. It's so we can communicate. Instead of saying "Dodge, Parry, Miss" we can say "Avoidance" and so on. We all agree on the definition of
umbrella
, so we can use it to communicate instead of saying "stretched cloth over collapsible, rigid framework with a handle that can be used to keep rain or sun off of us" in conversation.
See?
^.^
I LoL'd!
And you can flap your fleshy covers over your rigid white crushing protruding pieces of bone all day long, I still like UV rays cooking my covering made up of tiny cells keeping my internals where they should be so I don't look like something that dwells on the bottom of the vast watery landscape filled with scale covered organisms that..... uh, I'll just stop.... This could go on forever(and I don't want to get a dictionary out to find the spelling for all the words I want to put into this)..... =)
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
176018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
one of the key differences between "avoidance" stats like dodge vs "mitigation" stats like armor and SD is that avoidance stats are known for causing spikiness at times whereas this isn't true for mitigation stats.
if you get a string of dodges followed by a string of hits where you don't dodge then you go from taking little or no damage to suddenly taking a LOT of damage. mitigation stats are *different* from this - they reduce every hit by a percentage (armor, PotP) or a set amount (savage defense). granted, SD isn't *every single hit* but the uptime is very very high if not 100% against boss type stuff where you're only getting hit by one target and the swing time is fairly slow (compared to aoe tanking on trash). this is what makes avoidance stats different from mitigation ones - they both reduce the total amount of damage you take, but mitigation does so in much smoother ways.
This is certainly true. But this is very well captured in "mitigation = everything (avoidance + rest), avoidance = proc based, rest = smooth".
Another thing to take into account would be the scaling of a (overall-)mitigation stat. You can have stats like armor or dodge that scale with the incoming damage. Meaning that if the boss does twice the damage you will mitigate twice the damage with those stats.
Others have a fixed damage reduction that doesn't scale with incoming damage. An example here would be SD or PW:S. Those can ultimately be seen as "effective heals" since they work basically as if you would receive a heal of the same amount. So in a way SD and Leader of the Pack are very similar.
So how do we best capture those differences? We need one word for the overall damage mitigation over the course of the fight. I think mitigation is great for that but you seem to disagree.
Then we need a word to describe percent based damage reduction (armor, dodge) - I'd go with percent based mitigation here. This is the main reason why I like mitigation to describe overall damage reduction over the whole fight - armor and dodge are very similar for their scaling behavior and need to be in the same group here. The other group would then be constant mitigation, meaning things like SD.
If we do not split the different mitigation stats along the fixed vs percent based axis but instead split them along the "spikiness" axis we end up with avoidance (like dodge) and single-hit mitigation (like armor).
I think this way of naming the different possibilities to reduce damage is very clear and logical and allows for all the necessary distinctions between proc based and not proc based as well as scaling (with incoming damage) and non-scaling damage reduction.
Post by
Heckler
Since you won't let it go, I have another reason why your definition for mitigation is lacking. To start, here's what I understand
your
definition to be:
"Mitigation" is anything that reduces (mitigates) the 'effect' of the incoming damage , therefore mitigating the chances of death. Stamina counts as mitigation because increasing your life pool will also decrease the % of health removed for a given attack.
Now, we've already used semantics and standards to explain why this is flawed, but here's a functional reason you might be able to agree with: If thats the definition of mitigation, then Stamina is ALSO "mitigating" the amount of HEALING you receive (Smaller % increase for a given heal). This fact alone removes the usefulness of the categorical description, because all of its components cannot be compared side by side anymore (Unless you quantify the 'mitigation' of your incoming HPS)
Again, as a working standard definition of terms, I offer this:
We say "Avoidance" because Miss / Dodge / Parry all stack additively to the same end, so they belong in a category. Because you can't Avoid 100%, we call anything that reduces the damage taken from each non-avoided incoming attack "Mitigation" . To define a limit on how much damage we can endure beyond these two effects we call our life total and things that affect it "Survivability" -- Since this typically just means Stamina, it doesn't need its own term and is usually just called Stamina (Although it could be easily argued that an ability like Srv. Instincts would squarely fall into this category, and clearly NOT in the other 2).
As a suggestion to your "
We need one word for the overall damage
mitigation
over the course of the fight
" statement: We have a term for this (note I'm using your definition of mitigation), its called Time To Live, and it is a quantified "net effect" calculation of Avoidance, Mitigation, and Survivability.
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