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Def. cap
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Post by
snakeroo
Simple question, whats the defense cap for a DK tank?
and should a DK blood tank have more defense than a DK frost tank?
Post by
322587
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Post by
snakeroo
Thx for the fast reply. Really helpful =)
Post by
Dunsinane
The def cap for ALL tanks is 540 so as u dont get critted by bosses.
Incorrect - druids don't rely on defense to be uncrittable. They get there through talents.
NOTE: 540def doesnt mean you wont EVER get critted. There is always a slight possibility to get the crit in your face. :)
In the absence of a buff or debuff that increases a mob's chance to crit or decreases your defense (Hello, Thorim), yes, it does mean you'll never be crit.
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226700
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292580
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226700
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Post by
Dunsinane
The def cap for ALL tanks is 540 so as u dont get critted by bosses.
Incorrect - druids don't rely on defense to be uncrittable. They get there through talents.
NOTE: 540def doesnt mean you wont EVER get critted. There is always a slight possibility to get the crit in your face. :)
In the absence of a buff or debuff that increases a mob's chance to crit or decreases your defense (Hello, Thorim), yes, it does mean you'll never be crit.
Actually there is a VERY slight chance that you can be critically hit even with 540 def.
No there isn't
You get a base .2% chance to crit every level above somebody you have. (Plus 5% base crit) Meaning bosses have a 5.6% chance to crit you, IF you have 540 defense you lower your chance to be crit by 5.6% They cancel each other out and make it so you are uncritable.
There is like a millionth of a chance to be crit...some people never see it at all some end up eating a crit and being 1 hit, but yes there is still a small chance.
No. There isn't. Math doesn't work that way, and neither does the attack table.
Post by
386025
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345711
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Post by
Dunsinane
No. It can't.
Random number generator doesn't matter when there is literally a zero percent chance of an occurance.
It is not .000000...0000001%. It is 0%. These are different numbers.
The math:
Level 83 boss is known to have a 5.6% chance to crit against a level 80 tank.
1 defense skill beyond the base 400 is known to remove .04% chance of being critted.
Thus, 140 defense skill beyond the base removes 5.6% chance of being critted, thus leaving 0%.
If there WERE a .000000...00000001% chance of being critted at 540, then it would be removed simply by getting to 541.
The reason 540 is a soft cap is not because Blizzard programmed crit reduction to stop at that point, it is because at that point there is no more crit chance to remove.
Repeating an unsubstantiated claim is not an argument. Demonstrating gross ignorance of mathematics is not an argument.
Post by
235419
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Post by
Dunsinane
Anecdotes are not evidence.
I find your claim unlikely in the absence of actual evidence (WWS? screenshot of the druid's combat log showing his actions leading to the crit?) as druids actually have a 6% crit reduction.
Off the top of my head, I can come up with three much more likely explanations:
Not specced 3/3 Survival of the Fittest
Sitting down while tanking
Shifting out of bear form while tanking
Post by
235419
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Post by
Dunsinane
You do realize the date on that third link is April 1st, 2004, right?
As for the second, without seeing the gear in specific, he could still be crittable. 540 defense appears on the character sheet at 688 defense rating, which is still crittable.
And as for the first, several possibilities are brought up in the thread that discusses it:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18031077776&sid=1
I find it curious that he can't identify his own defense skill properly.
Post by
288980
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Post by
Dunsinane
Sigh.
Umm you do realize you just contradicted yourself right? This entire post you have been saying at 540 def you cannot be critted, and just now you say you can.
No, I didn't.
The reason why is that the character sheet does not always give accurate numbers. For some reason, the defense skill tooltip is rounded off to the nearest skill point while the game mechanics round it down.
Thus, 687 and 688 read as 540 defense skill on the character sheet, but are actually 539 defense skill - and thus crittable. Really now, this is basic division.
Yes you can still be critted with 540 def, becuase and if you havent realized this yet blizzards math is always f-uped and wierd i.e. frost pres is 5% dam reduce imp frost pres is 2% dam reduce blade barrier is 5% dam reduce but once you do all the math mumbo jumbo it ends up being around a 11.25% dam reduction. Really trying to post the whole bosses have a 5.6% chance to crit then def cap reduces chance to be critted by 5.6% then not realizing the random bs that blizzard does with math in a forum where time and time again we have proven there are too many number crunchers was a mistake on your part imo.
Obviously you aren't one of them to miss such an obvious point and one that has been well known for some time.
In fact, I've yet to see a single number crunched by those who assert that crits can happen at uncrittable. They've simply made the same assertion over and over. I'll give credit where credit is due, though - ZettaSlow actually went looking for some evidence. Props to him, even if it isn't conclusive.
Oh, as for the damage reduction concern:
Blade Barrier means you take 95% of the damage from an attack
Improved Frost Presence means you take 93% of the damage from an attack
They're calculated separately, thus:
95% of 93% = .95 * .93
You take 88.35% damage from the attack (11.65% DR)
(If for some reason Improved Frost Presence is calculated separately from Frost Presence, you'd have 11.555% DR)
Really, it's sixth grade stuff. Now, if you want to complain that Blizzard's tooltips are massively fail - I'm with you on that.
And YES you can still be critted im at 546 def and when going ack thru the combat log to figure out how the hell I went from 30k HP to around 19.8k in 2 hits from the first boss in H HoL with out the buff, it was a crit and a reg hit there will always be a 1 in a million chance for you to be critted (before buffs for mobs who get +crit % and debuffs for you which lower your def) just like even at the supposed hit cap you have a 1 in a million chance to miss.
Case in point. No numbers crunched, no evidence to back either assertion.
Anecdote is not the singular form of data.
Really if you're going to argue get your facts straight and read stickies
I'd suggest you do the same, except you haven't done any arguing yet. You've simply recited your own prejudices and done some trolling.
Me, I've spent about two hours going through Maintankadin and Tankspot looking for a single verified example in the past two expansions of a tank who was uncrittable being crit without either having a debuff on himself or an increased chance of crit on the mob. Because if there was one - that's where you'd find it.
Haven't found one yet.
(Oh, and I went through the stickies and didn't find anything in them about a miniscule chance of a crit in spite of being uncrittable. Perhaps the claim is made later in the discussion? Feel free to link me to it. I'm curious.)
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360847
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