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Crusader Strike - Why lowering the cooldown doesn't help
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Post by
Silversmith
And i havn't really seen much info on CS yet so i'm still standing by my original thought of this:
"25% less damage for a 33% lower cooldown = mawr dee-pee-ess".
Old CS: 110% WD. 1.25 multiplier through talents: 110*1.25 = 137.5%
New CS: 75% WD. 1.25 multiplier through talents: 75*1.25 = 93.75%
93.75 / 137.5 = 0.68, so 32% damage nerf.
And as for the cooldown, you can only achieve 4s cooldown only if you just stand there spamming CSes, throwing only one spell in the 2.5s window between them. In real situations, you will want to use two abilities, that means 2 GCDs, that means the effective cooldown will get to 4.5s.
Basically, looking at CS alone, "32% less damage for 25% lower cooldown = less dee-pee-ess".
Now, factoring in seals:
Old CS: 137.5% WD + 48% WD (SoB) = 185.5% WD per 6 sec
New CS: 93.75% WD + 33% WD (SoV) = 126.75% WD per 4 sec = 158.44% WD per 6 sec.
158.44 / 185.5 = 0.85, so 15% damage nerf.
Bottom line: we will now be doing less damage, burning more mana and have less free GCDs for utility spells. Don't see anything to cheer about here.
Post by
svirve
My bad, i was thinking that CS was at 100% weapon damage (been a while since that was current).
I like it how you jumped at the opportunity to prove me wrong though ;p.
And i know that it would have a minimum effective CD of 4.5 seconds. But if you check my wording you'll see that i mention it being my original thought, never said it was my final or that it was in any way correct.
What you're forgetting though is the initial part of a fight which is always one of the more crucial points in a fight for all classes. How fast we're able to apply our self buffs so we can reach our maximum potential DPS.
With a lower CD on CS we'll be applying SoV alot faster and thus increasing our average DPS over the fight by making the initial rising curve steeper.
Longer fights are ofcourse going to make this less and less important. But for DPS races and movement heavy fights reaching maximum potential DPS, ASAP is key.
I wouldn't be so quick to toss this off as crap this early. Blizz intentions is to highten DPS but lower burst and so far they've done a great game i'm pretty sure they'll figure this one out.
Post by
Silversmith
With 4 second effective CD yes, it would be good - it would provide damage increase in the long run. 4.5s no. If they pop the CD to 4.5s and up the damage accordingly, all would be good.
Anyway, if you want to play around with the numbers, here is what I used (ruby script):
dmg = {:old => 0, :new => 0}
casts = {:old => 0, :new => 0}
t = 0
while t <= ARGV.to_i do
if t % 4.5 == 0
dmg += 126.75
casts += 1
end
if t % 6 == 0
dmg += 185.5
casts += 1
end
if dmg > dmg
new_leads_at = t
end
t += 1.5
end
t -= 1.5
p "New CD last took lead at t = #{new_leads_at}"
p "Over #{t} seconds old CS was cast #{casts} times, burned #{casts * 352} mana, new CS was cast #{casts} times, burned #{casts * 352} mana"
Post by
154564
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
ok, i would like to point something you guys seem to be missing, a ret pally would never ever ever want to use SoV. why do you ask, k i'll tell you. in order to make use of the goodies that having a 5 stack of SoV will give you in the patch, you can't judge, the second you do you will you lose the 5 stack. pallies have to judge for many reasons.
...ok, I would like to point out something you seem to be missing....
Seal of Vengeance
14% of base mana
Instant cast
Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing attacks to apply Holy Vengeance, which deals additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Holy Vengeance can stack up to 5 times. Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 33% weapon damage as additional Holy damage. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 30 min.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
/facepalm.
Post by
154564
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
maybe your not getting what I was pointing out, the five stack disappears when you judge SoV.
Maybe you're not getting what I was pointing out. It DOESN'T.
EDIT: Nice edit. No, it hasn't changed; it's never been this way in the first place. Here's the CURRENT patch's tooltip.
Seal of Vengeance
14% of base mana
Instant cast
Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing attacks to apply Holy Vengeance, which deals additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Holy Vengeance can stack up to 5 times. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 30 min.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
Post by
154564
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
154749
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
kevinjohn3d
If they really wanted to get rid of our FCFS and give us a real rotation, they would keep the 4 sec CS cd (but increase the damage to make up for the 4.5 effective cd), lower DS cd to 9, and make Exo have no cd but keep the instant cast from the AoW proc.
0 - CS
1.5 - Judge
3 - DS
4.5 - CS
6 - Consecrate
7.5 - Exo
9 - CS
10.5 - Judge
12 - DS
13.5 - CS
15 - Consecrate
16.5 - Exo
18 - CS
19.5 - Judge
21 - DS
22.5 - CS
24 - Consecrate
25.5 - Exo
....
This would make only 1/2 Imp Judgements necessary, gives you 9 seconds to get a crit for the AoW proc, would make the consecrate glyph bad, would give us an actual rotation, and we would still be facerollers.
Post by
Synectics
If they really wanted to get rid of our FCFS and give us a real rotation, they would keep the 4 sec CS cd (but increase the damage to make up for the 4.5 effective cd), lower DS cd to 9, and make Exo have no cd but keep the instant cast from the AoW proc.
Yeah, but that'll never happen for two reasons: PvP would get even more imbalanced due to more burst, and of course, Blizzard just doesn't listen to reasoning and logic from the community.
Post by
264935
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
Removing the CD from exo would be very reasonable and logical, right?
Let's just assume we have a holy pala with BiS gear here (~2800 SP, 50% haste and 55% crit).
Exo damage
MIN
1028 + 0.15 * 2800 + 0.15 * 220 = 1481
MAX
1146 + 0.15 * 2800 + 0.15 * 220 = 1599
AVG
(1481 + 1599) / 2 = 1540
DPS
(((MIN+MAX)/2)*(0,83+sphit))+(((MIN+MAX)/2)*crit)
(recognise the formula squishy? ;p)
(((1481+1599)/2)*(0,83+0))+(((1481+1599)/2)*crit)
2125,2 DPS.
This is a holy paladin chaincasting exo and we're not accounting for any talents increasing damage here. And most of all we're using a holy paladin exo scales equally well with AP as SP.
Post by
Synectics
Removing the CD from exo would be very reasonable and logical, right?
Let's just assume we have a holy pala with BiS gear here (~2800 SP, 50% haste and 55% crit).
Exo damage
MIN
1028 + 0.15 * 2800 + 0.15 * 220 = 1481
MAX
1146 + 0.15 * 2800 + 0.15 * 220 = 1599
AVG
(1481 + 1599) / 2 = 1540
DPS
(((MIN+MAX)/2)*(0,83+sphit))+(((MIN+MAX)/2)*crit)
(recognise the formula squishy? ;p)
(((1481+1599)/2)*(0,83+0))+(((1481+1599)/2)*crit)
2125,2 DPS.
This is a holy paladin chaincasting exo and we're not accounting for any talents increasing damage here. And most of all we're using a holy paladin exo scales equally well with AP as SP.
And a Disc or Holy Priest could do the same with BiS gear. :P
Post by
Squishalot
Yeah, I agree with Synectics - 2k dps doesn't seem excessive with BiS gear. A Holy Pally could probably do that much with BiS Ret gear on, using melee and Holy Shock. We've already demonstrated that a Prot pally can do 1.2k dps *naked*.
By comparison - how much damage does a resto druid do when wrath-spamming? Wrath is base 553-623 damage per cast, plus 57.1% SP scaling (from the comments on Wrath Rank 12 page). So on a mere 2000SP, you'd be doing 1730 per cast, not including criticals. And with more SP, add in criticals, add in haste rating, you'd be able to scale that up a *lot*.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
2k isn't much in BiS gear. But as i mentioned that's the paladin alone.
Add in the 25 man buffs and talents, and you'll get one hell of a lot more than 2k.
Since exo is ranged the pala will rarely suffer from movement heavy fights as well.
All i'm saying is you have to look at it from every prespective, not just say "qwaaiii they nurfed ret!" (i'm not saying anyone does, though the oppinions so far has been biased).
If they would take exo off the cooldown what would the concequences be?
Would we have a brand new spec that can pump out 10k DPS by just spamming exo and nothing else(highly unlikely i know but did anyone stop to think about it?)?
Edit:
Comprehension of the written language, "a thing that should not be".
Post by
Squishalot
Fair point, a Ret paladin with extra damage to Exo, higher AP and some haste gear could probably do pretty decently too. But it stands to reason that it wouldn't scale nearly as well as melee based abilities such as Crusader Strike and Divine Storm, for the same reasons that HoW isn't necessarily a shoe-in for a prot rotation.
Our calculator suggests that with 1350 str, and 4700 AP, in a protribution spec, Exo would be doing 3k per hit on average, with zero hit, zero haste and 21% crit.
For the record, in a protribution spec, you could have 2.5k strength, 3k stamina, 15k AP (yep, you read that,
fifteen thousand
AP), 446 hit rating (max spell hit), 1000 crit rating giving you 43% crit, and you'd still only get 5k dps by endlessly spamming Exo, as opposed to 7k from a 9-6 rotation. Ret spec wouldn't be much different.
The notable difference, I think, is the absence of melee dps when you're casting. With this overgeared paper doll, he'd be doing 1700dps from melee. You also don't have Seal of Blood (Command, in the new patch), proc'ing on each hit either - that's another 1500 dps. Every cast of Exo would lose you 2500 in white damage, 1200 from the SoB proc, and would therefore gimp your Exo damage by 3700 in opportunity cost alone, by using it over an instant cast.
So overall, from a more measured perspective, I can't see that using Exo would fit into a Protribution spec any differently than before. I would be guessing that the same would apply for Ret, for the same reasons.
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