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Crusader Strike - Why lowering the cooldown doesn't help
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Post by
Synectics
I just got done doing some PvP on the PTR (have yet to do some raiding, but it's on my agenda for the day), and one thing that's bothering me still is Crusader Strike.
As we all know, the cooldown on CS got lowered to 4 seconds. Immediate concerns were a drop in DPS and mana issues. Well, I can comment that I never even came close to OOM while using SoC and the Glyph of SoC, even on a dummy for about two minutes' time. I can't comment on DPS, as I'm (unfortunately) using a premade character.
Here's the thing -- the lowered cooldown on CS was supposed to help us Rets to have something closer to a real "rotation," or at the very least, pressure us more in our current FCFS style by constantly having something to press.
But what I see as the inherent problem is that we're not "choosing" to use CS -- it's simply a button that, when it gets shiny, we're supposed to press. And now, with the lowered damage, it's really nothing more than an extra weapon swing on our big >3 second weapons. How could it get any more lame than that? It's just a free weapon swing.
And when I say "choose" to use CS, I really don't mean that we need more abilities to use. What I mean is that CS is in no way, shape, or form an "attractive" ability. We have no reason to WANT to use it -- we just have no other option but to press it, because if we don't, we're standing there doing a whole lot of nothing.
So what I'm getting at: CS just isn't a good ability in the first place. While lowering the cooldown DID help with our FCFS style, just a little, it really didn't do anything to make CS "better." Instead, this change has made it painfully obvious that CS just isn't a good ability in the first place, and needs some sort of reworking.
/open discussion
Post by
292580
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Post by
187275
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Post by
160382
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Post by
Synectics
Also, the change to CS was not intended to nerf the skill or buff it, simply change the pallys FCFS playstyle, which they have not totally succeeded at yet, just made it a little harder to do.
I understand the change to CS wasn't a buff or a nerf; just as I mentioned, the intention was to help with the FCFS rut that we are now in. I guess I should have been more clear that my problem lies more with CS itself, not with our FCFS style... although that's still a huge problem, but lets save it for another thread... ;)
CS is really nothing more than simply a weapon swing we have to press every time it comes up; it really serves no purpose other than to keep our fingers busy. It's such an obvious attempt to make us feel more involved, while it serves no actual strategic purpose; THIS is what I think needs worked on and fixed. It's no wonder we're called facesmashers with such simple abilities and no choice but to use them repeatedly.
Your example involving Sinister Strike actually helps my point -- Rogues use this ability to chalk up a Combo point. There's a REASON they're using it -- not just because it's the only thing not on cooldown. It opens them up to more abilities, and is a very necessary part of their class.
Crusader Strike, on the other hand, is simply a weapon swing every 4 seconds -- something to do between Judgement and Divine Storm cooldowns.
Even something as simple as doing an extra 10% damage on a target with a judgement effect already on them would be a step in the right direction. See what I mean? Some sort of synergy, or motivation, to use the ability, would at least give me some peace of mind that I'm not simply smashing my face into my keyboard. >.>
Post by
Booterang
Your applying the seal of corruption/vengeance debuff with it. Since that seal requires 5 stacks to work effectively, does that not give reason beyond 'a button to press' to use crusader strike?
Also: Is seal of corruption or command better for PvP? It seems like corruption would be better once you get 5 debuffs on the target.
Post by
Synectics
Your applying the seal of corruption/vengeance debuff with it. Since that seal requires 5 stacks to work effectively, does that not give reason beyond 'a button to press' to use crusader strike?
Also: Is seal of corruption or command better for PvP? It seems like corruption would be better once you get 5 debuffs on the target.
The thing is, everything applies the debuff of SoC/V... therefore, how is CS special or unique? Again, it just becomes another weapon swing.
And from what I found on the PTR so far, I love using SoC. The burst on it is undeniable -- think SoB/M, but with auto-crits on stuns. On most ranged classes, I'm able to open with HoJ, run through Judgement, CS, and Divine Storm, hold them still with Repentance, wait the one second or so for Judgement CD, and then use both it and CS. By this point, either Hammer of Wrath will be up, or a quick Exorcism will make it up, so something like a Hunter or Mage can't even Disengage / Blink away without getting finished off. XD
I think in PvP, except for an arena situation, it just doesn't seem you'll have enough time to get a full stack on your target. But then, against a healer like a Resto Druid? It might be worth it to help counteract all those heals... you can't exactly stun-lock a HoT. :P I definitely want to hear more from others who have been trying both, though.
Post by
pezz
If you don't like the Ret play style, which is absolutely fine, you can have your own preferences about classes, just roll a more complicated class.
Post by
xaratherus
I have to agree with Synectics: Making you push a button for nothing more than a weapon swing isn't making the class more complicated, it's simply adding the illusion of interaction.
It needs to have some sort of mechanical interaction with other spells. For instance, if say Crusader Strike had a random proc that increased Holy damage on the target for a few seconds, then you would have a reason to spam CS every cooldown -
and
it would force the Paladin to watch for that proc so that they could trigger a second attack to make use of the increased Holy damage.
Rather than give Ret the illusion of required interaction, they really should increase the synergy between the spec's abilities so that there is some actual strategy to using certain spells in combination, rather than just bruising your forehead rolling it across the keyboard.
Post by
89501
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Post by
svirve
On a slightly seperate note I think paladins should get something akin to shaman weapon spells.
"Righteous weapon" "Blessed weapon" "Vengeful weapon" which would do nothing more than allowing your attacks to do extra things (which could be utility or dps).
Seals? Or am i missing your point?
Post by
PureGold
Ideally i'd like crusader strike to be the "ret all in one judgement" applying light, wis and justice to your target and possibly modifying them to be more effective.
Frankly I believe having holy pallies judging bosses is the wrong focus for their time and mana, I think allowing ret's to apply all possible judgements and keep them up would greatly increase a raids desire to have one on hand at all times.
No just no...
Healy pallys judge for a ton of haste, and prot judges too. Ret shouldn't be the only one who becomes judge dred.
Post by
pezz
I'm a holy paladin. Rarely do I find myself at a point where I literally cannot spare a GCD to keep the judgement buff up, although I suppose it does happen. But if we don't judge every minute we lose 15% haste. On top of that Blizzard is changing the mechanic for JoL now to make it just as useful for a holy paladin to cast it as a ret paladin. Also dear God I can't imagine the QQ if ret could judge all three judgements simultaneously and instantaneously in PvP. Whatever servers Blizzard keeps their forums on would crash literally half an hour after 3.2 went live from complaints about ret.
Post by
Squishalot
Too long to quote everything...
@Booterang - Synectics is using Seal of Command, not Seal of Corruption. Nobody calls Corruption 'SoC'. But he would be worth while trying to use SoV and seeing if it produces any better results - I'd suggest not from a burst perspective, though. Especially if it has a chance of breaking Repentance.
@ Synectics - I thought the 5 stack was SoV, not SoC? That might explain why you haven't had time to get the debuff to 5 stacks ;)
@ PureGold - you're missing the point. mrmunkles is suggesting that Holy shouldn't *need* to judge, i.e. talents boosting haste wouldn't be dependent on them judging every so often, that it should be based on other things.
Post by
89501
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
@ Synectics - I thought the 5 stack was SoV, not SoC? That might explain why you haven't had time to get the debuff to 5 stacks ;)
Sorry, I wasn't very clear with how I mentioned the two seals. ^_^` I've been using COMMAND for all my burst, and I don't see VENGEANCE being all that great in PvP, except for in extended fights -- say arena, or a Resto Tree. Lol, sorry for the confusion; henceforth, I shall call COMMAND by SoC and CORRUPTION / VENGEANCE by SoV! :D
Now, in a fight that's going to last a bit longer than the typical stun-lock-and-burst, SoV is probably going to edge it out, but it's going to take a long enough timeline to do so. SoC still has a LOT of upfront burst, especially coupled with Exorcism.
And, of course, this is PvP talk. In PvE, SoV is going to be a very clear-cut winner, IMO.
But dammit, svirve and Squish! I wanted your guys' opinions on CS and how lame it is! :P
Post by
327953
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Post by
Squishalot
But dammit, svirve and Squish! I wanted your guys' opinions on CS and how lame it is! :P
I'll add it to the spreadsheet ;p
Rotation's still going to be the problem.
0: CS
1.5: Judgement
3: DS
4.5: CS
6: Exo (you should have a proc by then)
7.5: Consecrate
9: CS
10.5: Judgement
12: <spare>
13.5 DS vs CS?
You're still going to have clash problems, you're not going to get a good rotation. 4 second CD implies every 3rd cooldown. Judgement needs to come in every 6th cooldown, so you can slot them into a rotation nicely. Leave Consecrate every 6 cooldowns. Divine Storm comes in every 7 cooldowns, which throws things out of whack every so often. Exo is every 10 cooldowns.
1-3: Judgement, CS, DS
4-6: Exo, CS, Cons
7-9: Judgement, CS, ?
10-12: DS, CS, Cons
13-15: Judgement, CS, Exo
16-18: ?, CS, DS/Cons?
No matter what you do, Divine Storm with a 10 second cooldown is going to disrupt things. Unless you work with a 10.5 second rotation instead of a 9 second rotation. That would allow you to use Glyph of Consecration (if you're foolish enough to).
1-3: Judgement, CS, DS
4-7: Exo, CS, Cons, ?
But you're still left with a gap every rotation, sometimes 2 if Exo is on cooldown. So what's the point? We still have gaps where too many things are on cooldown, and we still have clashes.
Edit: If it wasn't obvious enough, I'm looking from the PvE perspective. Does SoV 5 proc buff increase all holy damage, even that done by other paladins (eg, Ret pallies and SoC), or only the damage done by the paladin using SoV? So would there be merits in a Ret pally starting with SoC and switching to SoV once the buff went up? Or just starting with SoV and getting the buff up quicksmart?
Post by
svirve
i'm really mad that they nerfed crusader strike to 75% damage or something..
i rely on crusader strike the most to do the most damage... now that blizzard is nerfing judgement crit too, we have no ability to do massive damage.. arena for paladins will be a bit harder..
They're nerfing the damage but upping the DPS. If you cant put pressure on someone in PvP how are you ever gonna be able to kill them?
try nerfing plague strike or froststrike... u can spam it twice in a row doing 8k crits.... -__-
WTS Patch notes?..........
But dammit, svirve and Squish! I wanted your guys' opinions on CS and how lame it is! :P
Truth be told i'm not much for the PTRs. It's just packed with kiddos thinking "AWMAIGAWD I GUT DEM EPIXXX" not to mention the lag and server reliability.
And i havn't really seen much info on CS yet so i'm still standing by my original thought of this:
"25% less damage for a 33% lower cooldown = mawr dee-pee-ess".
Sure it's gonna hit PvP burst but recently blizz seems to be making PvP a DPS race and not a burst competition so it's not like we're the only ones getting burst lowered.
Post by
Synectics
Truth be told i'm not much for the PTRs. It's just packed with kiddos thinking "AWMAIGAWD I GUT DEM EPIXXX" not to mention the lag and server reliability.
And i havn't really seen much info on CS yet so i'm still standing by my original thought of this:
"25% less damage for a 33% lower cooldown = mawr dee-pee-ess".
Sure it's gonna hit PvP burst but recently blizz seems to be making PvP a DPS race and not a burst competition so it's not like we're the only ones getting burst lowered.
Agreed that PTRs are pretty bad. However, whether current patch or current PTR, CS is how I mentioned... just plain lame. Nevermind the cooldown issues and what-not... it's just a very boring, complete BS filler.
@Squish - You would think that Blizzard could simply sit down and take the five minutes it took you to realize the inherent problems with our current rotation from such a purely factual, mathematical perspective.... :P
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