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Chill of the Throne and Bears
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Post by
curlymon
One question. Has it been stated that the dodge reduction is before or after DR's are applied?
Post by
194492
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
I just read through the post and I honestly feel GC has the right idea here. I'm gonna toss my vote in with the Blizz Dev teams. All the QQ I read was mostly ignorance wrapped in pretty words.
Post by
424717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
369432
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
TL:DR If they are lowering Tank avoidance overall, that means it becomes more precious. This does NOT mean jump into complete Stam stacking.
I actually hadn't thought of it this way, it's a very interesting viewpoint I will be interested in how it plays out.
However the drawback to stacking dodge/avoidance will obviously be diminishing returns since the 20% reduction is applied afterwords. You will get a lot less dodge for your ilevel itemization points than you would stamina.
You'll get the exact same amount per point as you would without Icecrown Radiance... which is the point. The relative worths of the two stats are the same with or without ICR, and if anything, avoidance will actually increase in value because of the smoothed dps.
Post by
369432
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Avoidance becomes more 'precious' if you like, but that won't mean gemming for it will be the solution.
Think: will you use a 20 agility gem to gain 0.3% dodge or a 30 stamina gem to gain almost 490 more HP in Bear Form (with Kings)? The new ilvl 260+ gear will naturally come with higher agility and dodge / defense rating. For instance I would socket the
Bladeborn Leggings
with 3x30 stamina and not for one second look back.
What would be the point in using agility gems to gain merely 50% of their raw potential in dodge? Diminishing returns will keep tanks from increasing their avoidance by more than 3-4% in ICC gear anyway. And the sheer amount of magic damage being dealt there will more than make up for the more 'smooth' and 'constant' stream of physical damage (against which dodge helps). As such I'd rather see on my character sheet fully raid buffed the values 70K HP and 50% dodge (30% effective dodge) rather than 60K HP and 54% dodge (34% effective).
This is the way I feel about things now. Smooth and steady physical damage flow will not mean the bosses will do less damage than those in ToC right now, as the blue posts have said. But rather there won't be those abilities that deal huge amounts of damage in a few seconds (like Icehowl enraging after killing a player with charge, Dreadscale dealing 50% more physical damage after Acidmaw dies, Fjola gaining dual wield and +20% attack speed while Eydis casts Twin's Pact etc.).
But if a boss like Dreadscale hits in ToC 25 normal for ~18K on a properly geared tank (245 ilvl), I believe that the bosses in ICC will probably hit for at least ~20-22K plus magic damage streams. Avoidance will be as valuable as ever, but higher 10K more HP will make the damage stream much more manageable than 4% avoidance. Plus higher HP actually helps a lot to further improve our 'oh sh*t' abilities, which are designed to increase Effective Health (Survival Instincts glyphed +45% HP and Barkskin received damage reduced by 20%).
I'll stack stamina. Where the socket bonuses will be truly valuable, agility may be an option for me.
Later edit:I'd actually wager, after getting full 25man IC gear, I could push around 50% dodge/35k armor while maintaining around 42k HP self buffed.If you want to see 50% passive dodge (even raid buffed) on your character sheet in lvl 245 gear then you either don't plan on doing any hard modes or you like giving your healers heart attacks when one single hit takes you to 35-40% HP.
Post by
Heckler
I'll stack stamina. Where the socket bonuses will be truly valuable, agility may be an option for me.
This is basically what most end-game Feral Tanks already do anyways. I don't think Chill of the Throne will have much effect on the way we play or gear.
Post by
karlusdavius
Chill of the throne will really, really REALLY save me hair loss as a MT healer. Damage is very very spikey at the moment. Id rather tanks take nice periodic damage and maybe a few heavy hits along the way to test me rather than sweat nuts watching that little box on grid waiting for it to hit 5%
Post by
424717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
100k damage in 2 seconds is called a spike. 100 damage in 2 hits or in 5 hits
over 2 seconds
is still a spike. This is not a typical boss melee mechanic. Most of the bosses have a 2 seconds weapon swing timer. Dreadscale for instance hits for ~18K on a lvl 232-245 geared tank.
Enrage
takes it to ~27K. Under these circumstances, Dreadscale can do ~54K melee damage in 2 swings (technically ~3 seconds). He can also cast
Molten Spew
and with a 50% buff, this does ~4500 damage every 0.25 seconds for 2.5 seconds (+50% from the enrage), amassing to a total of ~45000 damage. So in 3 seconds, Dreadscale can deal ~72K damage (while spewing he does not melee, so I assumed one melee and spew). This is a spike. When dealing 18K per hit (not enraged) he can do do ~48K damage over 3 seconds. A tank geared in lvl 226 items can't reach 50K HP (even raid buffed) that easy. So a tank just coming out of Ulduar 25 and entering ToC 25 will have some heart attacks. A lvl 245 geared tank can reach 55K HP with ease. Such a tank can survive for 4+ seconds without receiving heals (in the worst case scenario when he doesn't avoid physical attacks). This is what the '5 second' survival rule is all about.
The most likely thing to happen in Icecrown Citadel if you ask me is that bosses aren't gonna use these 'enrage' mechanics as often as they do now. And they won't use so many burst spells so often. A boss there will probably melee for ~18K on a lvl ~250 geared tank (which has 55K+ HP raid buffed) and will make use of 'slower' damage over time spells (like auras). But don't be fooled by Blizzard's words. I am willing to bet that almost every boss in there
will
have some 'heart attack' ability that will suddenly endanger a tank's life. For such moments, effective health beats the crap out of avoidance.
The concept of 'high amounts of armor' is overrated. All tanks in a certain gear level range will have comparable armor, varying at most by ~2-3K (from bonus armored amulets, rings and trinkets). A variance of 2-3K armor at a level of 35K armor (raid buffed) is going to translate into ~2%
physical
damage reduction variance at best. For those actually willing to plan their numbers to the extreme, it may provide a useful foundation to build on. But if a boss hits for 18-20K and the tank calculates that 41K HP (and stacks avoidance) will fulfill the 5 second rule for him and then he gets unlucky, doesn't avoid 2 hits back to back and gets a fireball thrown at him while the healers are in trouble and cannot help him, he'll cause a wipe. Such a wipe coming at 1% boss HP is VERY frustrating. But having an extra 10K HP means he can take that fireball too and still be alive for 2 more seconds while some healers get back on their feet.
These worst case scenarios will still happen. Effective health will still be the best bet for progression.
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