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Chill of the Throne and Bears
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Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
As if too much dodge was any good, anyway. Getting a streak of dodges right after a pull and holding aggro is no easy task.
Im gonna have 60k hp raid buffed in ICC gear. Who cares about 20% less dodge. The people who paint the aura as a tragedy generally tend to treat everything as a tragedy.
Druids generate better threat when they get hit. Death Knights generate better threat when they dodge. Its the DKs that are gonna mind the aura somewhat more.
Post by
Aadramelekh
GG
There was another thread a few positions below on the exact same topic.
Considering equivalent gear, Bears have higher health (~6-7K more). Bears have higher armor (~5K more fully raid buffed). Raid buffed, they have almost the same avoidance as other tanks (the only avoidance edge the other tank classes have is the miss chance from defense, about 4-5%). Bears have Savage Defense as well (not as good as typical block but still very nice).
I don't see any problem with this change in terms of game mechanics and fun factor.
Tanks that have focused too much on avoidance at the cost of HP and disregarding the severe effects of diminishing returns will suffer the most. However I believe that Bears will actually be the least affected, because our agility is boosted by talents and Kings. Defense, dodge and parry rating that work for other tanks are not.
Post by
327123
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Post by
369432
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Post by
Aadramelekh
It would be quite difficult to find gear with defense / parry as only stats of avoidance.
Take a look at
THIS
selection. There are VERY FEW pieces with no dodge and only defense/parry.
That in the first place. Also keep in mind that defense gives both dodge and parry at a rate of 0.04% per defense skill point. Second, parry is also under the effects of diminishing returns. Dropping dodge for the sake of stacking parry would probably get them to the same result.
Probably Warriors and Paladins will get out of this the easiest way through block. Because bosses in ICC supposedly will not hit much harder, gear loaded with strength, block rating and block value will be their best bet. Fully raid buffed, a paladin can reach ~3000 block. A warrior can reach even close to 4000 on some blocks with his Critical Block talent.
The dodge reduction will affect all tanking classes just as much (any lvl 232+ geared tank will have ~25% dodge and the substitution of dodge with parry just isn't possible because of gear itemization). A bit more relaxed will be druids because agility is multiplied by talents / Kings. Effective health will now grow in importance even more.
Post by
Thuya
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it just LOOKs as though bears will be getting the bum wrap here.
If you take a generic example tank with say 50% avoidance for example, adding up dodge parry and block, with dodge being 25% of it. Subract the 20% dodge and you get 30% avoidance.
Now take a generic example bear with 50% dodge avoidance, take the 20% away and you still have... 30% avoidance.
I don't think this is going to affect druids any more than any other tank.
Post by
194492
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Post by
hashmel
seeing as non-druid tanks can get 20%+ dodge as well i'd say it's fair, it'd lower their avoidance the same amount as ours
the ONLY tanks this will effect less than us are non-druids with less than 20% dodge which if they have that little dodge they most likely aren't tanking ICC...it'll hit rogue tanks the hardest knocking them down to less than unhittable
and who knows maybe the debuff will push DR back some so the agility that was knee-deep in DR is worth more thus negating part of the debuff...doubtful but would be amusing
Yes, a non-druid tank could sac dodge in exchange for parry/miss but they'd require such an immense amount of parry/def rating to replace an equal amount of dodge that far into parry/miss DR that it would be near futile i'd imagine
Nelf frost DKs dabbling in blood would have my best bet to do so if it were doable as Nelves have a passive 2% to miss, frost adds an additional 3% to miss, and blood has spell deflection making parry even more valuable to them
Post by
Heckler
The description in the
blue post
seems to indicate that the "damage per attack" will be reduced in concert with the dodge reduction. Perhaps "reduced" is the wrong word, but I just mean the intention of the change is to allow bosses to deal higher DPS without increasing the chance of an unsurvivable streak of unlucky hits, which is the only method they have atm (with the exception of just adding a static magic-damage dps to every boss, but since that would bypass armor/avoidance, I doubt people would be any more happy with that route).
So it's not as if you have to get to 70% dodge to achieve an identical level of tanking... the
DPS
of the bosses will increase as you would expect it to when moving up a tier, but the damage-per-attack will
not
increase by the same factor. Part of the DPS increase will come from this buff, meaning even with a 30% dodge chance, your incoming DPS (on average) will be as manageable as it would have been if they hadn't changed anything, you just won't have the bad-luck chance of eating two 35k swings in a row and dying before you could even think about hitting SI.
Post by
441181
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Post by
369432
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Post by
hashmel
Morik, according to the armory you're just over 30% dodge which in form would be just over 40%, with more gear it'd go a bit higher but for the sake of this thread i assumed we were referring to raid buffed as it's regarding a raidwide buff to enemies meaning you'd be over 50%
just a friendly observation, you seem to be almost ~2% over the hit cap and could swap some gems for superior stamina without any significant impact to your avoidance
i may be off a bit but with your current meta you have 27858 armor unbuffed except for bear form? while it's a fine meta i personally uphold the effulgent skyflare diamond, you lose exactly 500 (how coincidental) armor with your current gear and gain 2% reduced damage from all spells, not that 500 armor is useless but it's so far into DRs that i feel a solid 2% from unmitigable damage is better
i've always been more a fan of stamina as it's our strongest stat and dodge can be too iffy for my taste and it seems blizzard can work around our dodge more easily by designing a raid so that we're stunned half the time we're in combat than they can work a way around our stamina
Post by
129046
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Post by
156401
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Post by
Aadramelekh
Please bear in mind that wiht current gear + raid buffs + trinket/idol procs we are waay past 50% dodge some of the time.
This "nerf" will take us safely back in dodge giving us more time before the DR starts to affect our procs and buffs.
While it's true that warr/pala will fare the best, I don't see blizz scewing up THAT badly that bears would be left to eat the dust. (Atleast not for long *grin* )
Ok, ok just stop posting this. PLEASE stop.
frogguts
made a pertinent remark there. And I can speak from my own experience as well. Buffed only with MotW I have a little over 41% dodge (Bear Form). ~1280 agility. Raid buffs that influence passive avoidance are Blessing of Kings, Horn of Winter and Blackened Dragonfin for us. I assume the usage of a Stoneblood Flask which would prevent an agility elixir.
So *1.1 = ~1640 agility. Now before diminishing returns, that would mean close to 36% dodge. Add to that the ~15% base dodge for a fully talented Bear and we would get to ~51%. Add to this ~3% dodge from dodge rating and ~1.5% dodge from defense rating (average values for any tank using lvl 232-245 standard tanking amulets / rings / cloaks) and we would have ~56% dodge. Before DR. But at this level the DR is already well into a severe reduction effect. So in fact that extra 41% dodge over the base value will be reduced to ~30% on the character sheet (cba using the exact formula right now, but it's somewhere around here). As such the actual passive dodge of my example Bear would be ~45%. Mongoose adds ~142 agility (3% dodge before DR) and Idol of Mutilation adds 200 dodge rating (~4.4% dodge before DR). Due to the DR effect at this level, a simultaneous proc of Mongoose and Mutilation Idol would not grant 7.4% dodge, but rather ~5%. So with these procs running, my sample Bear would be sporting ~50% dodge. Considering full 258 gear, this would not go much higher. 52% at most.
So the "waay past 50%" mention is rather deceiving. Bottom line is that an average 232-245 geared Bear using stamina trinkets (double
Juggernaut's Vitality
FTW) will have 40-41% dodge and 45-46KHP self buffed. Using 2 trinkets like
Eitrigg's Oath
(normal + heroic can be equipped simultaneously) would mean a loss of ~6K HP in exchange for ~3.5% more passive dodge (at this DR level).
The avoidance can't really go any higher than that without severe HP gimps. And for a tank in this content (Heroic difficulty), Effective Health is a clear priority over avoidance. In ToC 25 heroic I prefer 57K HP and 45% dodge raid buffed rather than 50K HP and 48% dodge when facing an enraged Icehowl (if he hits someone during charge), because +45% health from Survival Instincts (glyphed) will be much more powerful.
And clearly Chill of the Throne will mean that effective health will be the clear way to go in ICC rather than trying to boost avoidance even more (and into a severe gimp from diminishing returns). Especially since many bosses in there also make use of heavy magic damage.
Also about the other thing you said,
Nnoutaja
:This "nerf" will take us safely back in dodge giving us more time before the DR starts to affect our procs and buffs.I sincerely doubt it. Because I remember clearly the way it was in Sunwell - and this is the SAME situation.
And I shall use this screenshot as a proof that I am not talking bollocks:
Aadramelekh vs Brutallus
- back in the good old hardcore days of Sunwell.
Take a good look at my dodge number. Almost 83% with all procs. At that time there was no diminishing return on dodge. 15 agility gave 1% dodge. If I were to activate my
Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
I would have reached almost 99% dodge. The thing with Sunwell Radiance was that it did reduce the chance to dodge by 20% and the chance to be missed by 5% (so plate tanks with over 10% miss were cut down to 5% and my Bear was cut down to ~3% - as bears were using a little defense rating at that time). But this didn't effectively cut the value on the character sheet. It was not a debuff on the players, it was a buff on the NPCs. And as you can see from the blue post, it says Chill of the Throne will allow creatures to ignore 20% of the dodge chance of their melee targetsso it will be a buff on the NPCs here as well. your character sheet will still show 50% dodge with all the procs. Your actual dodge
only against the NPCs
in ICC will be 20% lower. And I am pretty sure that the DR will remain the same, because it is calculated from your actual values on the character sheet and not counting the buffs on enemy NPCs.
As such I am pretty much 99.9% sure your assumption is false,
Nn
.
Post by
Katsudon
This effects everyone similiarly. All dk/warrior/pally tanks already exceed 20% dodge rate.
- the reason they hit dodge only should be obvious as its the only stat all tanks have in common for sure. And its the avoidance stat that has the largest base.
Post by
Thror
/sigh
Just got vote-kicked out of Alterac Valley cause i got stuck reading this topic. You sure type a lot, Aadra D:
Anyway.
/soothe Everyone
Thror soothes everyone. There, there... things will be alright.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Awwww, isn't this cute? ^_^
/target Thror
/cuddle
Post by
129046
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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