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Best AOE snap aggro with frost spec?
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Post by
Aris
So my guild has complained that my single target threat generation is too high (don't ask), but that my aoe snap aggro is too low. They want me to grab trash packs and instantly have aggro on everything so dps doesn't have to wait.
This is what i came up with:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxx0AbIoc0iost0gh:woT0MV
Glyph of HB
Glyph of D&D
Glyph of UA
Rotation:
D&D>Deathchill>HB>BB>BT>BB
Then use HB every time its available, OB when its on cooldown, and BB until everything is dead.
Now i realize i wont be able to use deathchill every pull, but when i can i will.
For single target threat gen:
D&D>Deathchill>HB>BS>BT>PS
Then use OB for f/u runes, BS for blood runes, and FS for runic power. Reapplying frost fever and blood plague with HB and PS. I figure after the initial rotation the death runes i get from blood strikes will allow me to fit PS in to re-apply blood plagues.
What do you guys think? remember the priority here is aoe threat gen, and then just maximizing single target afterwords with what i have left. Can you think of a better way to do it?
Post by
251602
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
I've never seen any reason to get icy reach. 20 yards seems to be plenty for HB to hit everything.
I've been watching my recount last few heroic runs, and i have never seen HB miss yet. Its been "immune" to certain mobs, but never "missed". Also i don't use IT anymore. BB also hasn't missed.
Now I'm not saying they cant miss, but after 3 heroics now neither HB or BB has yet. While I'm sure in a raid environment the chance to miss will be higher, but with so little misses already (zero) i really don't know how much Virulence would help.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
349677
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
for single target, you dont need to drop D&D or deathchill. just do HB, obliterate, froststrikes and and your high damage spells to keep single target threat. what i usually do for instant agro is:
D&D>HB>BB>blood rune> BB>BB>HB
its important to use the blood rune cooldown as much as possible. Sure it takes damage but you can glyph it to not hurt you. Also the cooldown is very short so it will be up before you know it. (not exactly sure if its called blood rune, but its the spell you use to refresh your cooldowns. Not the rune cooldown.)
Well D&D is the highest threat gen per rune out of any DK ability, and the start of the fight is the best time to use it since later you would have to time it to fit into your rotation. So your wrong on that account, D&D should always go down first for every pull. You'll probably get higher DPS by using OB/BS instead, but your threat gen will be lower.
I realize deathchill isn't required, but it will help when its available. Plus there's no downside to using it, it doesn't use runic power or a rune.
By "blood rune" i assume you mean "blood tap"? But yea I'd be using BT for an extra BB, i just forgot to put that in, i was just listing my opening 6 runes. I have the minor glyph so it doesn't do damage anymore.
Drop epidemic for 2h weapon spec and you're golden. With a glyphed HB, you'll be refreshing frost fever every 8 seconds or so, and you won't need blood plague up to make BB work at it's best.
D&D > HB > BB, then HB -> OB (for attempted rime proc) -> BBx2
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Yea im startin to think about switching epidemic with 2hws. I just hate to drop another 50g to switch 2 points. *sigh*.
The PS for blood plague is to increase single target threat gen. I figured it would be better than just using another BS. i wouldnt use blood plague for aoe, just single target to help OB and BS damage.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
D&D takes a few seconds to give a nice buffer.
I figure since D&D does take a few seconds to give decent threat that the beginning is better, since if its at the end then by the time it gets working it'll be too late.
Plus i typically pull packs with D&D, so before they even get to me, or the raid dps, i'm already building threat. Dps'ers usually wait at least till they get to the tank, just not much longer after that.
Post by
NeoBlackheart
My Rotation is
D&D>HB>BB>IT>PS>PEST>BB>HB
And I will tell you I have never had anyone pull aggro off me exept the OT which it took his taunt to get the guy to even think about it.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
You get the same threat out of it regardless of when, :)
Well no, because if i use it at the end of my rotation theres a good chance everything will be dead before it actually starts working. I've got some pretty high raid dps, at least a half dozen over 4k+.
Plus then what will i pull with? If i try to pull with HB i'll likely be body pulling before im in range, and then i
would
have to spend 2 point in icy reach.
Post by
251602
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
D&D cast on where they are, and letting them come to you, is a waste of runes right?
I cast D&D so that im standing on the very edge of it, so that the mobs run the full length of it before they get to me, and are still standing in it when they get to me.
Post by
svl007
Now I'm not saying they cant miss, but after 3 heroics now neither HB or BB has yet. While I'm sure in a raid environment the chance to miss will be higher, but with so little misses already (zero) i really don't know how much Virulence would help.
here in lies the problem heroics max lvl 72, raids 73
if i then tell you you have a 6% chance to miss a mob 2 lvls higher then you (raid trash and hc bosses), but a
17%
chance to miss a mob 3 lvls higher then you (raid boss) then i hope you do notice the importance of virulence when running with a glyphed hb build, bc when you miss hb, frost fever doesn't get refreshed, but your hb does go on cd, so you manually have to refresh frost fever with it (and ps for unholy rune, both of wich are lower tps then the ob they could have been) This build relies on keeping frost fever up with free hb's through rime for most of the time, which makes epidemic a rather good talent for this build btw.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit
if you want some prove for the numbers.
rotation(single target) should be hb>ob>bs>bs(start) ; ob>ob>ob ; ob>ob>bs>bs using hb on rime procs or to replace an ob with when frost fever is about to fall off.
now if you only plan on using this build for trash only, then by all means don't take virulence, but if you do, move the points from morbidity to virulence. glyphed hb build offers more then enough aoe threat without morbidity and in a raid setting having D&D on a 30sec cd is more then sufficient (anywhere else aswell, since this build doesn't really require D&D to hold solid aoe aggro)
btw you don't body pull when standing 20y away from mobs
Post by
Aris
i see your point on virulance for single target threat generation, im just not sure where to get 3 points from. Maybe 2 from epidemic. Even with Virulance though i still wouldnt be spell hit capped on bosses. Granted HB would do more damage than IT, but idunno if that would ultimately be detrimental to threat generation. Id still have that frost/unholy rune. I'd still have BT that i could then use for an extra BS instead of PS. So while IT/BS may be less than HB, i dont think it would be the end of the world either.
I disagree with your single target rotation. starting with D&D will always give you higher threat gen.
a 30 second D&D is unacceptable. It would slow down raid progression, there are times that 15seconds is too long with the rate my raids clear trash. They are not going to want to sit around and wait for D&D to come off cooldown to continue pulling trash. The whole point of this build is to make trash clearing faster, not slow it down.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
Well when talking about whether to use PS for single target threat gen, it ultimately comes down to what do i use my death rune from BT on during my opening rotation? Sure i could use it on a BS instead, but im thinking PS+disease damage is likely going to be just as much as an extra BS if not more. Plus blood plague is then going to make my OB hit harder as well.
After the initial application though, i was planning on using death runes from BS's to get a PS in to re-apply blood plague. My OB is hitting harder than HB even with only 1 disease up, so its going to be the preferred ability to spend f/u runes on unless i need to refresh frost fever. Plus OB will proc free HBs with rime.
Post by
349677
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svl007
i see your point on virulance for single target threat generation, im just not sure where to get 3 points from. Maybe 2 from epidemic. Even with Virulance though i still wouldnt be spell hit capped on bosses. Granted HB would do more damage than IT, but idunno if that would ultimately be detrimental to threat generation. Id still have that frost/unholy rune. I'd still have BT that i could then use for an extra BS instead of PS. So while IT/BS may be less than HB, i dont think it would be the end of the world either.
I disagree with your single target rotation. starting with D&D will always give you higher threat gen.
a 30 second D&D is unacceptable. It would slow down raid progression, there are times that 15seconds is too long with the rate my raids clear trash. They are not going to want to sit around and wait for D&D to come off cooldown to continue pulling trash. The whole point of this build is to make trash clearing faster, not slow it down.
this build can keep more then enough aoe threat without D&D hb>bb>bb>ob>fs tabbing through targets for the single target skills.
in long term starting with D&D might better, but when you say your group kills it that long only thing you really need is front load threat which this build offers, and by the time D&D starts to shine, mobs are dead. on top of that it's not like you are the only tank in a raid setting. so yes a 30s D&D will more then do.
therefor i suggest you take the points out of morbidity and put em in virulence if you do plan on using this build on raid bosses.
2nd epidemic is good since you want to keep up frost fever with free rime procs. and not replace ob with an hb, bc a hb can't proc rime, whereas an ob can.
lastly pull with a deatchill hb>ob>bs>bs>fs on bosses you really don't need D&D. if you really want you can put D&D down in 2nd rotation. few days ago you said your dps is pulling aggro right at the start and then you are gonna start with D&D, which is a rather slow aggro builder doesn't really make sense.
As for the the virulence and being capped. if you have a decent raid setup you probably are gonna have the extra 3%hit debuff applied on the boss, 1%hit if you're alliance. and the fact that spell hit goes up faster then melee hit. so capping your spells out with that setting in mind and virulence isn't much harder if harder at all then capping yourself for melee hit.
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