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Balance haste, is there ever too much?
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Post by
curlymon
This would be somewhat true if the haste stat was beneficial to all parts of the rotation at all times, in most cases it is not. The haste cap hurts the value of haste more than you are giving it credit for, due to more than half of our rotation gaining nearly nothing from it in these "ideal" situations.
If Moonfire and Wrath still benefited from haste beyond the, say, 15% of the fight that Nature's Grace is not up the values would be significantly closer. But this is simply not the case, and the 2-piece tier-9 set bonus only makes the gap bigger.
But I want to be fair in saying that you are right that haste is in no way worthless beyond the soft cap, even if you have over 600 points of it... but the values in terms of dps are far from equal in the situations you are describing.
You stil are not quite understanding the relationship that haste and crit play in our rotation. Yes Haste suddenly becomes half as usefull as it previously had been when we hit the soft cap but the gains on the half that it still affects are still fairly equivalent to the gains in crit almost solely due to the amount of crit we have over haste rating.
Post by
murakaz
You stil are not quite understanding the relationship that haste and crit play in our rotation. Yes Haste suddenly becomes half as usefull as it previously had been when we hit the soft cap but the gains on the half that it still affects are still fairly equivalent to the gains in crit almost solely due to the amount of crit we have over haste rating.
I understand what you are trying to say just fine, your math is just fuzzy at best, and non-existent at worst.
Post by
Celdhyrean
The problem is that haste still has value even past the soft cap. It's still nearly equivalent to crit and the more crit you gain to closer they come in value. Being way over the haste soft cap is actually a fairly minor loss to dps compared to swinging point for point back over to crit.Of course, but as long as the relative value for crit is higher than that of haste, you don't gain anything by transforming a point of crit in a point of haste.
If i'm at 500 haste and 700 crit and their values are 0.7 and 0.8, then i gain more by adding 1 crit rating than by adding 1 haste rating, and this will be the same if at 403 haste and 1500 crit rating their values are 0.7 and 0.71. (though i'd then prefer haste because of reliable vs luck, but that's taking subjective parameters into account)
They don't contribute the same to our damage, so you can't just use unweighted proportions on them.
But since i forgot to download an up to date wrathcalc yesterday (because of work, raid and Cirno day), so i still don't know wether this actually happens at high crit or not. Note that i'm not saying that you are wrong, it's just that what you saying is based on the pre-requisite that haste value catches up with crit near crit cap, which needs to be tested.
Post by
curlymon
But since i forgot to download an up to date wrathcalc yesterday (because of work, raid and Cirno day), so i still don't know wether this actually happens at high crit or not. Note that i'm not saying that you are wrong, it's just that what you saying is based on the pre-requisite that haste value catches up with crit near crit cap, which needs to be tested.
No problem. The thing I'm trying to say is that due to the way Blizz itemizes gear going straight for the crit soft cap is not as strong a choice as going for the a more balanced approach.
I understand what you are trying to say just fine, your math is just fuzzy at best, and non-existent at worst.
As for modeling that specifically... that is wildly complicated due to all the possible gearing choices out there for us to choose from. The math shows haste nearing crit in importance the more crit you gain... You can't deny that... What I've been trying to say is that going for 900 crit (by choice) and staying at 400 Haste limits you more then going at it balanced. There are to many compromises on things other then crit when attempting to reach these goals. You seem to be forgetting that crit and haste are moot in the face of SP compromises.
Post by
QuestionC
Bit of a thread necro here, but I thought you might be interested in this. I just did a lot of simcrafting for my character, and here's what it came up with...
At 450(+50scale) haste, 720(-50scale) crit, with 4t8, haste is more valuable than crit (1.21 vs 1.09), so it looks like you really do gain DPS by trading crit for haste at some point above the cap. I don't know if 720 is above the crit soft cap, but it can't be that far above it. There's some factors that would swing the balance in the direction of crit (2t9, lag), but I was surprised at the result personally.
Also, prioritizing crit over haste really has never caused itemization to be difficult for me personally. We have pretty wide selection (half of the caster DPS items have crit). Letting other casters get haste items over you is probably better for the raid in most situations.
Post by
curlymon
How large is the swing that Simcraft does for scaling? I don't think we ever said a number.
Stacking Crit to the exclusion of haste after the cap causes you to miss out on our most important pieces of gear.
Stam
Int
SP
Crit
Haste
By ignoring haste after 400 and attempting not to go over you are still losing the benefit of the haste you could possibly gain. The Haste usually get turned into Spirit on the pieces you go after and Spirit is not even half as strong as the haste you could have had.
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