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Balance haste, is there ever too much?
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Post by
anywherenotes
I seem to have a lot more haste than recommended.
Guides mention ~400, and I got 613.
Abyssal Rune
is one of the big contibutors, but I don't really have any other trinket to replace it. Nothing is gemmed for haste, although cloak is enchanged with +23 haste.
Here's the armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ravenholdt&n=Hemonk
Up until yesterday I had a pvp belt from WG with +hit (and was using a different ring with +13 SP, but no hit, also ilevel 200 - had to switch rings to keep up +hit), now I got a +haste PvE belt. I've been trying to avoid crafted items since didn't have the cash, but now I have 4k and could spend it on something crafted if it's going to benefit.
Open to suggestions about any crafted item (probably can't afford multiple), or if this much haste is ok, I'm fine going like this.
Also open to Honor/WG-token gear. Besides what I got on, there isn't much pve gear in bank. The guild I got into is running ToC/Ulduar, and I'm upgrading from heroic gear, so there's a huge spread in ilevel, I'd like to use as much ToC/Ulduar gear as I can.
I am able to keep up mana regen for entire fight, the only issue was at 10-man general yesterday when i ran out at last 10 seconds. (was my first time in there, there are things I could have done better to conserve mana)
Post by
176018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
~400 haste is the cap for instants and wrath, ie when the GCD is down at 1s and won't go further. More haste still helps your SF's. Basically, under 400 haste is noticeably better than crit, and over 400 haste crit becomes more beneficial (point for point) than haste but only by a little margin.
Work on your upgrades naturally and your haste should come down somewhat by itself, don't try to lose the haste all in one go by equiping lower level items.
Post by
hashmel
hit>all till capped
SP>all after hit capped
haste>crit till wrath and the gcd are down to 1 sec
crit>haste once wrath and the gcd are down to 1 sec
haste beyond a 1 sec wrath and gcd only benefits hurricane, starfire, and any restoration spells you may cast on the odd chance so it's less beneficial but in no way is it completely useless
Post by
curlymon
Big thing to note about the haste softcap:
This makes Haste fairly equivalent to Crit. Crit is still slightly better and you will tend to gem for that instead but by no means is haste something you ignore at this point.
All that being said your crit is pretty dang low... Get the Sundial of the Exiled from the heroism badge vendor instead of the Abyssal Rune. It's quick and easy to snag.
Also you only have 1 blue socketed gem and this is leaving your meta unactivated. Best place to fill this in is those shoulders you have. +12sp +10spirit is best of course.
Post by
anywherenotes
Big thing to note about the haste softcap:
This makes Haste fairly equivalent to Crit. Crit is still slightly better and you will tend to gem for that instead but by no means is haste something you ignore at this point.
All that being said your crit is pretty dang low... Get the Sundial of the Exiled from the heroism badge vendor instead of the Abyssal Rune. It's quick and easy to snag.
Also you only have 1 blue socketed gem and this is leaving your meta unactivated. Best place to fill this in is those shoulders you have. +12sp +10spirit is best of course.
omg, thanks for that meta thing. yesterday after raid I re-gemmed to use the new belt, and that's when I lost the other blue gem. I'll have to fix it tonight before raid, and probably get that trinket too, I have the badges, just downranking to heroic from conqueror :( but makes sense to get it. Well I have about 10 heroic and 15 valor badges laying around.
Post by
127003
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
i'd suggest aiming for the soft crit cap.
That's a relative impossibility...
With:
MkA 5%
Focus Magic 3%
Totem of Wrath 3%
iFF 3%
Nature Majesty 4%
iIS 3%
Eclipse 30%
Lunar Fury Idol 4.36%
2t8 bonus 15%
1400 Intellect (avg number) 8.4%
That would require you to get 976 crit rating on gear.
To keep the 2t8 bonus and met the soft cap requirement on a realistically geared Moonkin you'd only have around 290 haste or so... This also cause you to max out at around 6.5k dps with the best gearing you can find while meeting the soft cap on crit as opposed to theoretical 7.5k... Soft capping crit in a non gimmick fight is highly impractical...
Post by
176018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
NG hastens the GCD. As it is now, it basically works as an additional 20% haste on gear.
(else NG wouldn't do anything for wrath which would be quite noticeable)
Post by
murakaz
That's a relative impossibility...
With:
MkA 5%
Focus Magic 3%
Totem of Wrath 3%
iFF 3%
Nature Majesty 4%
iIS 3%
Eclipse 30%
Lunar Fury Idol 4.36%
2t8 bonus 15%
(...)
Soft capping crit in a non gimmick fight is highly impractical...
Actually, it's less so than you'd think. If you're able to get all these buffs (counting Imp. Scorch which you forgot) you'll be somewhere in the realm of 75% crit chance before taking Int or gear into consideration. So hitting the "soft crit cap" for Lunar Eclipse is definitely possible, although it requires being in all Ulduar hard-mode and Tier 9 245 level gear, which would be out of the original poster's options at the moment.
Post by
curlymon
Actually, it's less so than you'd think. If you're able to get all these buffs (counting Imp. Scorch which you forgot) you'll be somewhere in the realm of 75% crit chance before taking Int or gear into consideration. So hitting the "soft crit cap" for Lunar Eclipse is definitely possible, although it requires being in all Ulduar hard-mode and Tier 9 245 level gear, which would be out of the original poster's options at the moment.
Which is
still
not even remotely practical to gear towards over haste. 1k dps differenece going straight for the softcap on crit... Having big crits are nice but i don't think you understand how important haste is to SF or even wrath since we are talking about half the haste you need to make it useless for Wrath.
It is definitely not something you would suggest to someone who does NOT have access to said gear either... And if they did have access to the gear I'd be surprised if they worked towards the crit soft cap over a balanced approach.
Post by
anywherenotes
Thanks guys, this does help. I also got the badge crit trinket yesterday, and t8.5 legs from VoA, so my haste plummeted down to 427.
I was paying attention to the wrath time, and I believe in raid it said 1.03 second cast. So I believe I'm good now.
The armory is updated, if you have any other pointers.
Thanks again.
Post by
123068
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
Really the only thing i might suggest to you at this time is that you might want to move an extra point into Intensity if you plan on doing the longer hardmode attempts.
Also you might want to look into getting that blue trinket replaced but I don't really have anything in front of me right now to tell me your best upgrade but if you have access to Nax 25 you might try and get Dying Curse.
Post by
murakaz
Which is
still
not even remotely practical to gear towards over haste. 1k dps differenece going straight for the softcap on crit... Having big crits are nice but i don't think you understand how important haste is to SF or even wrath since we are talking about half the haste you need to make it useless for Wrath.
My statement was made under the assumption that you would be maintaining at least 400 haste rating on your gear while doing so. It is definitely doable, easily if you're able to get into 258 level gear.
Post by
curlymon
Which is
still
not even remotely practical to gear towards over haste. 1k dps differenece going straight for the softcap on crit... Having big crits are nice but i don't think you understand how important haste is to SF or even wrath since we are talking about half the haste you need to make it useless for Wrath.
My statement was made under the assumption that you would be maintaining at least 400 haste rating on your gear while doing so. It is definitely doable, easily if you're able to get into 258 level gear.
I've yet to build a Gear setup that allows you to keep the 2t8 bonus, 400 haste and hit the crit softcap... If you can build one please do so.
That aside, stacking that much crit is gimping you not helping.Haste and crit are equivalent to each other after the soft cap... On top of that haste and crit build on each other.
Your thinking 5% + 5% = 10%
when in fact it is 5% * 5% = 10.25%
Realistic numbers?
40% (crit)
25% (haste)
1.4 * 1.25 = 1.75 (as opposed to 65% if added together)
45% (crit)
25% (haste)
1.45 * 1.25 = 1.8125 (as opposed to 75%)
40% (crit)
30% (haste)
1.4 * 1.3 = 1.82 ( as opposed to 75%
The more you have of one stat the better the other one becomes.
Post by
Celdhyrean
That percentage comparison is somewhat misleading, since both percentages don't have the same effect on our dps. Typically, if the relative value of crit is still superior to haste at 99% crit (supposing haste cap kept), then it is indeed better to go for that crit cap instead of trying to harmonize both.
I do'nt have the latest wrathcalc version at hand to test this, but while the trends you advocate are indeed true, we shouldn't conclude too fast on those.
Post by
curlymon
That percentage comparison is somewhat misleading, since both percentages don't have the same effect on our dps. Typically, if the relative value of crit is still superior to haste at 99% crit (supposing haste cap kept), then it is indeed better to go for that crit cap instead of trying to harmonize both.
I do'nt have the latest wrathcalc version at hand to test this, but while the trends you advocate are indeed true, we shouldn't conclude too fast on those.
The problem is that haste still has value even past the soft cap. It's still nearly equivalent to crit and the more crit you gain to closer they come in value. Being way over the haste soft cap is actually a fairly minor loss to dps compared to swinging point for point back over to crit. And if you split the middle you gain more then either. Which is what I've been trying to say. If you have 900 Crit rating and 200 haste rating you will get more dps from 550 in each then being crit capped.
Or say you are haste softcapped, 900 crit and 400 haste is less gain the 650 to each.
Besides you lose out on quite a bit of equivalent gearing options that would have better synergy with other stats as well. Numbers are nice but you can't just expect to be able to hit your ideal numbers with the gear provided by Blizz. It's like trying to force 3 circles 5 squares 10 dodecahedrons through a circular hole... A few pieces go through some are close enough that they works but those last few just can't quite make it worthwhile when you can find a few smaller sized octogons. Ideal numbers and reality don't mix well :(
Post by
murakaz
The problem is that haste still has value even past the soft cap. It's still nearly equivalent to crit and the more crit you gain to closer they come in value. Being way over the haste soft cap is actually a fairly minor loss to dps compared to swinging point for point back over to crit. And if you split the middle you gain more then either. Which is what I've been trying to say. If you have 900 Crit rating and 200 haste rating you will get more dps from 550 in each then being crit capped.
Or say you are haste softcapped, 900 crit and 400 haste is less gain the 650 to each.
This would be somewhat true if the haste stat was beneficial to all parts of the rotation at all times, in most cases it is not. The haste cap hurts the value of haste more than you are giving it credit for, due to more than half of our rotation gaining nearly nothing from it in these "ideal" situations.
If Moonfire and Wrath still benefited from haste beyond the, say, 15% of the fight that Nature's Grace is not up the values would be significantly closer. But this is simply not the case, and the 2-piece tier-9 set bonus only makes the gap bigger.
But I want to be fair in saying that you are right that haste is in no way worthless beyond the soft cap, even if you have over 600 points of it... but the values in terms of dps are far from equal in the situations you are describing.
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