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Backstab Rogue Spec Gurus welcome
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Post by
364914
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
360289
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Random0098
Yes, it's viable.
But the points in relentless strikes would be better spent if put in Vile Poisons (because you don't pull off enough finishers to make relentless strikes useful).
You'll get
slightly
less dps than standard Combat, but it's a less frantic rotation, so you'll have a bit more time to think in a raid.
This thread
has everything you need to know.
Post by
261871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Random0098
Using the new spreadsheet, Mutilate does 7350 DPS with ulduar gear and fully raid buffed. Combat does 7450 DPS, and Backstab does 7250 DPS. In my opinion, THIS IS SLIGHTLY LESS DPS. Stop spreading lies, Iteken - Do your research before crapping your mouth feces all over a build.
PvP mutilate does 2400 less dps than Combat, big difference than 200.
So, with that in mind, lets look at the 5 points you made:
It's damage is too low.
It's combo point generation is weak.
You have to stand behind mobs to do damage.
Sustained DPS is weak.
It's hard to impossible to keep Rupture & SnD up at the same time.
-So, point 1 and 4 are the
exact same points
- both I just replied to above.
-point 2 and 5 are the
exact same points
- both are negated by the fact that the spreadsheet shows how it's
not
hard to keep up SnD and Rupture using the cps generated from BS.
-Point 3... oh my god, you're right! you have to Backstab from the BACK! This ruins the build entirely! Oh no, wait. it doesn't. I forgot there are these little square buttons on the keyboard that make the character move.
I can't see how Combat daggers rotation is Any different to Combat Swords? Spam CP builder, press SnD, Rupture or Eviscerate when required. The difference is you dont
spam
Backstab. You press it when you have enough energy. It's much less frantic.
So, in conclusion. I've NEVER said that Backstab is a better build than Mutilate or Combat. I've only said that it's VIABLE and COMPETITIVE. It's a different build for a different play style. I, for example, find it
fun
to try to use the positional requirement.
Post by
Mittens
Part of the reason why BS is so horrible for PvE (and it is) is the fights themselves:
BS recovers horribly from constant target shifting and can't even keep SnD up on many phases of many fights. Not to mention that there's STILL a lot of fights where being forced to stand behind a boss will result in a lot lower DPS due to lack of buffs such as haste/damage circles. And on some bosses you can't even get behind them without causing some problem.
All in all; even if the static DPS of BS was good, you'll never get to translate that into a real fight.
@Boottspurr, I don't appreciate your sarcasm...
-Point 3... oh my god, you're right! you have to Backstab from the BACK! This ruins the build entirely! Oh no, wait. it doesn't. I forgot there are these little square buttons on the keyboard that make the character move.
Funny thing... It actually does.
Post by
Random0098
Fair enough Mittens. I'm sorry for the sarcasm.
You're right, the positional requirement
IS
a big detriment to the build. But, the way I look at it, is that the skill required for this build is all in the positioning.
For Mutilate, the skill required is all in the rotation. If you mess it up, your dps suffers. For Combat, the skill required is all in the.. umm.. spamming finger? HaT requires no real skill (except for that same spamming finger). Backstab does require its own set of skills, which are oriented to positioning yourself properly and paying attention to that throughout the fight.
But, once you've mastered that, just like once you've mastered Mutilate's rotation, you're going to be using that Backstab build very well.
Post by
Random0098
Actually, you just helped me to decide something once and for all, Mittens.
I'm going to make my secondary (Dual-Spec) HaT for those fights where I won't be able to get to the back of them (Kologarn and Thaddius). One or two fights of mindless spamming wont make my soul hurt too much...
Post by
Mittens
I agree that it takes skill to use BS well. But no amount of skill will make bosses like Kologarm or Yogg a good or even a decent fight for you. You will be bottom dps with BS.
So look at it this way; At best, you'll be pulling the same DPS as the other specs. At worst, you'll be lowest.
Imo Backstab is not what blizzard is caring about right now, it limits encounters too much.
Post by
Random0098
Imo Backstab is not what blizzard is caring about right now, it limits encounters too much.
They also don't care about Engineering... I guess I'm a sucker for the underdog.
Post by
AlphaQ
So you're saying, when you're in a raid where your only job is to DPS (for the most part), it is okay to spec to something less than optimal?
Post by
Random0098
Oh, hey AlphaQ! Did you get around to doing what you said you were going to do last week?
So you're saying, when you're in a raid where your only job is to DPS (for the most part), it is okay to spec to something less than optimal?
Well, yeah. Of course it is. Isn't that what everyone is doing when they spec Mutilate or Combat instead of HaT?
Post by
176977
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
360289
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Random0098
Alright then, I guess we're all in agreement about Backstab. Use it if you want to, it's viable and can be fun, but Mutilate and Combat are better when you're good at them and are properly geared.
I enjoy a good conversation about builds rather than someone
*cough* Iteken *cough*
just bashing them for the wrong reasons.
Post by
261871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
AlphaQ
No I didn't get around to it because I already know what the results will be...
In order to fix Backstab, you need to fix combo point generation. Also the cost of Backstab needs to be reduced to compensate for its other weaknesses.
I fail to see how this is an "easier rotation" when you will be energy and combo point starved. Sure you can simplify it and say all you have to do is BS, SnD, and Rupture but it isn't easy to do that without CPs and energy. Combat actually has the same exact rotation with better CP generation and energy return. You can cycle in an Eviscerate as well.
Post by
Random0098
I downloaded WWS the other day, and I'm supposed to do a Naxx 25 run tonight (if all goes well), so I'll try to put something up tomorrow.
As combat, i only press sinsiter strike when it's required. As mutilate again, i only press Mutilate when i've about 57 energy. It's still spamming SS/Muti/BS.
No, with Mutilate you don't spam anything, I find. It's much more structured. When I think of spamming, I think of pressing the same button repeatedly even when it's not able to be used yet, which is what 95% of Combat users do with SS. Backstabbing is a little slower paced than Combat, and the only time you really "spam" it is when Adrenaline Rush is on.
It was proved, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that post-Envenom glyph removal, nHAT could out DPS vHAT by a reliable margin. However no-one ever uses it because in the end it's impractical. The rotations are insane, and it just isn't worth the effort. (yes, i tried).
I see what you're trying to say with this, but I feel as though it makes more of an argument
for
Backstab than against it. nHaT is more "optimal" than vHaT as it does more theoretical damage, but it isn't used because it's too hard to pull off. One of my points for backstab is that even though Mutilate has higher DPS than it, Mutilate is harder to keep the rotation going.
I know you're comparing nHaT to the positional requirement for BS, but it works both ways.
Anyways, I'll work on the WWS report tonight. My gear isn't the best so that will probably be reflected in the dps, but it should still be good.
P.S. 4 of your reasons worked out the same thing.
Post by
Random0098
No I didn't get around to it because I already know what the results will be...
Ok, well this is not that constructive. You told me you'd try it...
I was also wondering if maybe the tooltip for Backstab was glitched in some way. Does anyone know about this?
Without talents, Backstab does 150% of your MH dagger damage. You're supposed to get an extra 15% from Aggression, 20% from Opportunity, 10% from Blade Twisting, and 10% from Surprise Attacks. If those are all multiplied out, Base backstab damage (no crit) should be 250.47% of your MH dagger. On the tooltip, it only says 232%.
The only explanation I could come up with for this is if the Aggression % is only
added
to the Backstab dmg after the multiplications. Then it would come out to 232.8%.
Does anyone know if this is how it works?
Post by
AlphaQ
Sinister Strike costs 45 energy (40 talented) whereas Backstab costs 60.
Without taking into account energy regeneration (which standard combat builds have the advantage), we get 3 SS = 2BS. You're getting a 50% increase in combo point generation. Add in Glyph of SS (with about 50% raid buffed crit rate) and you're getting 75% increased combo point generation.
More combo points means more SnD uptime, more Rupture uptime, and more opportunities for Eviscerate. More finishers means even more energy regeneration and combo point generation with Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness.
This should not even be in discussion, it will not be close. Until they modify the damage modifier of Backstab and lower the cost or increase the combo point generation there is no contest.
How can you possibly fathom that a 60 energy, 1 CP Backstab will be close to even a 55 energy, 2 CP Mutilate as well
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