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Armor penetration coming 3.2.2
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Post by
Talawa
Okay, so when 3.2.2 the amount of ArP gained per point will be reduced by 12%, and i know that atm it's best to stack it on gems etc. after you gain 200 unbuffed on your gear
But does anyone know at what point it will be better than agility after the 3.2.2 nerf.
If you haven't realised yet I'm talking about feral DPS
Post by
Heckler
Ooh, another chance to spout my un-popular opinion about the shortcomings of low amounts of ArP!
EDIT: Standard Disclaimer concerning Heckler's advice:
I could be wrong, if I had a specific source that I was literally copy/pasting, I'd provide it, but odds are what I post below is the result of multiple sources I've researched in the past, and is therefore mostly my own opinion.
Pre 3.2.2 if you don't spend a decent amount of time above 700ish ArP, then ArP isn't as good as Agility.
Post 3.2.2 this number jumps to about 900ish.
This means:
If you don't have a Mjolnir Runestone or Grim Toll working for you, you should get your passive ArP up to 700ish (meaning you have 700+
AFTER GEMMING
). Post 3.2.2 this is somewhere closer to 900ish as posted above.
If you DO have one of those 2 glorious trinkets, then you should easily be able to achieve or get close to their "soft caps", and you should do that, pre-3.2.2 and post 3.2.2 (although the "soft cap" will be substantially higher post 3.2.2).
So... the common blurb about "Gem ArP once you clear 200 passive ArP!" is not 100% true, and I honestly think the first guy who said it assumed you had a Runestone equipped... Either way, if you have 200 ArP and then you gem for it and get another 300, but you don't have an ArP proc trinket, then you'll be sitting with 500ArP all the time, and with 500 static ArP, Agility is still better.
TL;DR Bottom Line:
Odds are you shouldn't be gemming for ArP now, and definitely shouldn't be after the patch. Unless you have an ArP proc trinket, then you should be gemming for it now, and after the patch as well.
Post by
curlymon
Heckler I don't play feral all that much, but I am my guild class lead, you give the same advice I give to the ferals in my guild.
To be honest the numbers I give are just a tiny bit different but same ballpark and advice over all.
Post by
Talawa
Oh well then it's only gemming agility for me.
The reason I thought ArP was better was because I read
this thread
, thanks for the help.
Post by
Heckler
Well that EJ thread explicitly says even without a Toll or Runestone to gem for ArP at 200 passive. I think that's flatly wrong, but again, just my opinion =)
Post by
SorrowsEnd
The ArP discussions really just make my head explode.
I spent a good 20 min on vent arguing with guildies last night that were calling me foolish for going full ArP at my gear level.
As I was crushing them.....
I, for one, will be happy when they just remove ArP completely.
But not as happy as when I can do a paid race change to troll!
Post by
pelf
Odds are you shouldn't be gemming for ArP now, and definitely shouldn't be after the patch. Unless you have an ArP proc trinket, then you should be gemming for it now, and after the patch as well.
Quoted and bolded for emphasis.
Post by
Sandos
Well that EJ thread explicitly says even without a Toll or Runestone to gem for ArP at 200 passive. I think that's flatly wrong, but again, just my opinion =)
Not to be rude, but extensive testing > opinion
Then again, if you're on a bad connection or computer, your mileage may vary; all tests are done under ideal conditions.
Post by
Heckler
Not to be rude, but extensive testing > opinion
No, it's not rude, and I don't take offense -- In fact, I try to make sure I point out that much of what I say is from my own mind so people don't blindly accept it as fact (sadly, most people come to these forums look for one-line gospel which they can blindly accept).
Maybe I should use a stronger word than "opinion" to describe my postings though, because while I'll agree that extensive tests are usually better than opinion, if that opinion is based on researching
many
extensive tests and models, then maybe it's worth listening to.
@SorrowsEnd
Your "Gear Level" is about as good as it gets -- If YOU shouldn't be gemming for passive ArP, then nobody should (Although as we discussed in the previous post, I agree that you have enough ArP to justify it -- however, just barely, and you have over NINE HUNDRED passive ArP, and it BARELY becomes "better" than Agi, and ONLY in a stacked raid environment).
I would actually have people who think they should gem for ArP without an ArP trinket look at your gear, and then ask them -- Are you better geared than Sorrows? If "Yes" then you can gem for ArP, if "No" then you shouldn't.
So, OP -- Go look at
Sorrows' gear
and ask yourself if your gear is as good as his. This is the kind of gear that makes gemming for ArP without an ArP proc trinket feasible.
Post by
skribs
Well that EJ thread explicitly says even without a Toll or Runestone to gem for ArP at 200 passive. I think that's flatly wrong, but again, just my opinion =)
Feel free to disagree with Elitist Jerks - I very often do, and find I do better as a result. I followed them a bit in BC, but have been utterly dissapointed with them in WotLK. For one thing, they don't really clean up their forums - the right answers are usually buried in hundreds of posts, and if you don't read them all you end up being lost and possibly not getting the right information. It's very much not user-friendly. For another, there are places where I've seen them pretty much flat-out wrong.
For example - when WotLK was in the works, I looked at some of their DK stuff and compared it with numbers I'd run and what I'd seen other people say - and I preferred the results of those who were in disagreement with EJ.
EJ says resto shamans should get the talent
elemental weapons
, which basically averages out to 15 SP per point (a shaman who has 2k SP, this is less than 1% increase per talent point - as compared to most talents on hybrids which increase effectiveness by an average of 1-2%).
Had our guild's MT go to EJ and read up their spec and rotation, and ends up dropping from 1.2k to about 650 DPS, as well as dropping from 4-5k to 1-2k TPS. The end result? He goes back to his old spec and continues to just destroy the threat meter while still staying alive just fine.
Now I see this quote. I don't know much about ArP, but from my understanding its basically stack it or ignore it (bit simple, but that's the basic idea). Now, if that's the case, then I dont see how 2 items which would give a lot of ArP result in no change on the base to that effect. Those trinkets are based on continuing to stack ArP for even greater burst - but without them, you're just left with a steady ArP number, and I think you'd want more before you switched the rest of your stats over.
Post by
Heckler
Now I see this quote. I don't know much about ArP, but from my understanding its basically stack it or ignore it (bit simple, but that's the basic idea). Now, if that's the case, then I dont see how 2 items which would give a lot of ArP result in no change on the base to that effect. Those trinkets are based on continuing to stack ArP for even greater burst - but without them, you're just left with a steady ArP number, and I think you'd want more before you switched the rest of your stats over.
The gist of it is -- again, my understanding only -- because a sort of "diminishing returns" is already built into the Armor system (that is, when you have a lot of armor, adding X armor adds less and less damage reduction), when you decreases the amount of armor someone has LINEARLY, as ArP rating does, the effect has the OPPOSITE of diminishing returns (that is, when you have a lot of ArP, each point of ArP reduces the target's damage reduction by MORE.)
The result is, as you get more and more ArP, not only does ArP get better and better at increasing DPS, but so do the rest of all your stats. So there exists some breakpoint where 1 ArP will result in the highest DPS increase among all other stats.
The problem is, this breakpoint is much higher than most would have you believe, somewhere in the vicinity of 700 to 900 -- the exact value is not all that important, and is dependent on raid structure and the amount of other stats you have, but suffice to say,
it's much much higher than 200
(and even higher than you can achieve with a full stack of ArP gems starting from 200).
Now, because of this "reverse diminish" effect, if you go far beyond this breakpoint, ArP continues to increase in value, near the hard cap nothing even comes close to ArP at increasing DPS (some would call this "broken"). The result of this is:
Person A spends 30 seconds at 1000 ArP and 30 seconds at 400 ArP.
Person B spends 60 seconds at 700 ArP.
Person A will do FAR more DPS than Person B, because Armor is not linear, and therefore a linear reduction in armor (ie ArP) produces non-linear results. Even though Person A spends half the time 300 ArP below, he also spends half the time 300 ArP above, and
the 300 ArP above are worth more DPS
(due to reverse-diminish), resulting in an overall increase in DPS.
So the next question is, "well all of this shouldn't matter, a proc getting me to the cap is one thing, but wouldn't it be better to be capped passively?"
Yes!
The problem is, it's just not possible without gimping all your other stats, which as discussed above, changes the entire scenario (ArP increases the effectiveness of AP / Crit / etc). There does exist some breakpoint where you can gem for ArP and see success without an ArP proc, but it is higher than most "entry level" players can achieve (as I said, 700 to 900), and after the patch it will be even higher.
So the reason you gem for ArP with a trinket, is because the trinket allows you to spend time
so far above the breakpoint
, that you're actually in "broken stat" territory (near the cap). Without a trinket, it's effectively impossible to get into this region passively. You can get over the breakpoint, but you still won't see the kinds of drastic DPS spikes that a Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone will grant during their procs when you're seeing ~2% damage reduction.
The new breakpoint (as well as the hard cap) post-nerf will still be achievable, and those who are using an ArP proc trinket probably will continue to do so. People who are mistakenly gemming ArP right now will be even more wrong post-patch. The bottom line is:
The trinket procs make all the difference
. Hopefully I've clarified why. (I'll grant that gear like Sorrows' warrants gemming for ArP, but if Sorrows had a Mjolnir Runestone, he may see better results if he swapped Agility down to the soft cap, depending on what he traded out to get the Runestone in.)
Post by
Aadramelekh
The problem is, it's just not possible without gimping all your other stats, which as discussed above, changes the entire scenario (ArP increases the effectiveness of AP / Crit / etc). There does exist some breakpoint where you can gem for ArP and see success without an ArP proc, but it is higher than most "entry level" players can achieve (as I said, 700 to 900), and after the patch it will be even higher.I agree with this, but not entirely. Going for the best ArP gear will not gimp other stats - and by 'gimping a stat' I understand 'bringing it to such a low value that it drags the overall DPS result down.
Indeed, entry level ferals can't even dream of reaching (fully gemmed) passive values of 600+ ArP rating. For them, agility is the best DPS pusher. The Mjolnir Runestone is also very hard to obtain - as Thorim 10 man hard mode isn't exactly a walk in the park. So their best bet is to try and obtain a Grim Toll and after that focus on ArP gear (of course, this comes in high numbers once they are deeply involved into Tier 8 content at least).
Talking about 3.2.2. As far as I understood, they will increase the ArP rating to ArP % ratio by 15% (correct me if I'm wrong). So the ArP rating needed for 1% ArP will increase from 12.31 to 14.15. So the new hard cap will be 1415 ArP rating instead of 1231. That's what... 184 ArP rating. Big deal. Take a look at this gear selection:
CLICKY
Now this offers 667 ArP rating. And it offers 19 sockets (not considering the meta). Add 3 extra sockets from belt + bracer + gloves (blacksmithing) and you have 22 sockets. Add Jewelcrafting. What do we get? Let's see...
3 x Fractured Dragon's Eye + 18 x Fractured Cardinal Ruby + 1 x Nightmare Tear (for meta requirement) = 102ArP rating + 360ArP rating + 10 allstats = 462 ArP rating + 10 allstats.
667 ArP rating + 462 ArP rating = 1129 ArP rating. In 3.2.2, this means almost 80% ArP.
Comparing this with ArP soft cap + Mjolnir Runestone for instance... Mjolnir = 655 ArP rating = 46.28% ArP. This means the soft cap for this trinket is 760 ArP rating (53.72% ArP). Here I believe that a constant value of 80% ArP is better than 53.72% for 45 seconds and 100% for 15 seconds per minute. Besides, the procs from Idol of Mutilation and Death's Choice will more than compensate for the 'lower' amount of AP / crit resulted from full ArP gemming. Also this combination would provide more than 60% crit raid buffed (with no agility procs involved) and probably more than 11000 AP as well. I believe that at this level, all that passive ArP rating
is
more beneficial than full agility or even than 760 ArP rating + Mjolnir Runestone (or 803 ArP rating + Grim Toll).
This gear selection does not gimp crit / AP by any means in my opinion. Going for full agility in such a gear selection would probably bring the druid into the territory of wasted critical strike chance on white attacks, since some of them will inevitably become glancing blows (and white attacks do count for at least 28-30% of total damage done for a cat).
Post by
Slimda
You will need a total of 12% more ArP to achieve the same % as you have now, after the 3.2.2-patch. This is a reduction of 15% of the buff they gave ArP a while back. (They buffed ArP to 125%, and now they're reducing that buff down to 110%, 15% less)
Post by
Aadramelekh
Oh well, 12%, thanx for the info. so 1231 * 1.12 = 1378. So the 1129 ArP rating we got in that gear selection list brings us to ~82% ArP rating. Pretty neat anyway.
Post by
Heckler
...
I agree Aadra, a passive 1100 ArP is almost surely better than Mjolnir + Softcap. In fact, as I had said above concerning Sorrows' gear, it really
requires
gear of the caliber in your link in order to become a good idea.
The main thing I'm trying to squash is that whole "gem for ArP once you get 200 ArP" nonsense... unless you have an ArP trinket and you're aiming for a soft cap, 200 just isn't high enough to start gemming.
Post by
424717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
What's with the ArP/Stam gems? Why not just use one prismatic to satisfy the meta?
EDIT
: Wow, that set makes you look like a complete tool. WTB T8 or T6 back, pls.
Post by
424717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
(or the know-how).
When you're choosing gems in the Choice Box, there's a "link" thing at the Top that says "Color: All, Match"
Pick All to see all gems =)
Post by
424717
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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