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Armor pen question
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Post by
363997
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hashmel
well armor pen has a cap of 100% so beyond that would be when it's of no additional benefit.
unfortunately i can't recall the exact amount when armor pen > agility but just toy around with it while aquiring gear and you'll find a comfortable balance.
Post by
363997
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
So i found out that after 230-300 armor pen you could regem full agilityI think you either misunderstood or you were misinformed. After you have 250-300 ArP from your gear pieces you
should
gem for ArP, since stockpiling that offers more benefit than stacking agility.
The matter with switching to agility was related to the ArP cap issue. ArP reaches cap at 100% or 1231 ArP rating. This value is currently pretty much out of reach in terms of passive armor penetration. However values such as 550-600 are fairly easy to reach. And if you have a trinket like
Grim Toll
for instance, you could gem up to 619 ArP rating and when the trinket procs it will offer you 1231 ArP rating for 10 seconds, pretty much proccing once every 45 seconds or so. Thus, after you reach 619 passive ArP rating and have Grim Toll, you should switch back to agility upgrades.
BUT
In Tier 9 content, considering the advent of epic gems and the advantages of having both Jewelcrafting and Blacksmithing as professions... take a look at this gear listing:
CLICKY ME
As you can see there are 19 sockets. 774 ArP rating already. Add one more socket on belt and 2 more from BS and let's do the math:
22 sockets = 3 x
Fractured Dragon's Eye
+ 17 x
Fractured Cardinal Ruby
+ 1 x
Accurate Ametrine
+ 1 x
Puissant Dreadstone
(the last two gems were chosen to fulfill the meta gem requirement)
In the end we get 452 more ArP rating, for a total of 1226 ArP rating (pretty damn close to 1231 eh?), 66 expertise rating, 250 hit rating. Enough hit rating and with some enchants / food, expertise cap can be reached as well.
Of course, there are some gear pieces here that come from hard modes that may be out of reach for most of the players. But even without those, a value of 1000 passive ArP rating should be pretty easy to reach. And this is much much better than having 600 passive and relying on procs from trinkets like Grim Toll to reach the cap for 10 seconds every minute or so.
Of course, 774 passive ArP rating is a huge boost to DPS as well (it provides nearly 63% ArP). You could consider filling those sockets entirely with agility. Thus, instead of 452 ArP rating you could get 488 agility (with talents). Raid buffed, it gets as high as 537 agility, providing nearly 600 AP and 6.5% crit. This can provide a nice setup as well, up to the point you reach 75% crit raid buffed - because there's a 25% chance on the white damage attack table for glancing blows instead of normal hits, and from here on adding more crit will not benefit as much.
The choice is yours. However keep in mind: armor penetration rating is good when stacked. The higher it gets, the more it improves DPS because of the principle on which it works -
increasing returns
(it is opposed to damage reduction from armor, which works on the principle of
diminishing
returns)
Post by
363997
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Post by
Aadramelekh
Overpowered?
Naaaaaaaah >:)
It would teach those pesky Blood Death Knights, Rogues, Warriors and Hunters who's the true king of physical DPS!
Sure 1226 ArP rating sounds 'alien' now when you think about it, simply because it is hard to reach. As I said, however, even 1000 passive ArP rating should be a reasonable target for pussy cats. Make that 900 without JC and BS as professions. And it's still better than 600 ArP + trinket proc.
Post by
132589
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Post by
MegaVolt
Sure 1226 ArP rating sounds 'alien' now when you think about it, simply because it is hard to reach. As I said, however, even 1000 passive ArP rating should be a reasonable target for pussy cats. Make that 900 without JC and BS as professions. And it's still better than 600 ArP + trinket proc.
Ofc it's better then 600 + trinket but the real question is:
Would 900 ArP with a different trinket be better then 600 ArP + 300 agil + ArP trinket?
I am not sure what the answer is on that one ... There is just no trinket that gives agil procs that are even close in awesomeness to the ArP procs. The superiority of the ArP trinket might very well cancel out the (extremely small) advantage you get from gemming ArP over agil.
Post by
176018
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Post by
363997
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
368348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hashmel
I've never really looked at armor pen as I've never played a physical dps class at 80 but I'm curious about armor pens effect on players.
If you were able to reach about 1200 would you gain nearly 100% armor pen on players? And would that treat them as though they have half their armor value or something else?
100% seems just a tad over half to me.. it does just what it says, it ignores that percentage of a target's armor
with that being said shouldn't the armor pen cap only be 75% in raids? if there's a warrior they'd better be stacking
sunders
, if not a rogue should be keeping them
exposed
(those 2 don't stack afaik) and any druid in their right mind will have
faerie fire
up (which does stack with either of the other 2 afaik)
Post by
Cenan
Armor penetration from gear/gems applies AFTER debuffs. This means if you have a 10000 armor target, with 20% of debuff armor penetration on him, he'd have 8000 armor. Then your armor penetration from your stats would be applied, removing whatever percent of 8000. Debuffs don't apply to the armor penetration cap.
Post by
328186
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Post by
curlymon
ArP reaches cap at 100% or 1231 ArP rating. This value is currently pretty much out of reach in terms of passive armor penetration.
The Arp cap is 1232 rating, and it is attainable, though studies are still in progress as to what BiS should be for getting the most ApR vs. sacrificing other stats.
Check out this thread over at elitist jerks. It should help you with any Apr vs. Agi questions you have. Also it has gear lists and an addon for feral druids.
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t49702-feralbynight_cat_bear_simulation_tool/
If you want to get REALLY technical the cap is 1231.6... so in a way your both right and in a way your both wrong.. but if you want to correct with the correct numbers do so correctly... And Aadra does know its attainable... but he's trying to do it with out a trinket proc and there by have it 100% of the time instead of 10-20 seconds out of every 45.
P.S. - I'm gonna go with the fact the Aadra knows ALOT more about the ArPen debate then you.
Post by
Mangea
So... whats the problem with gemming ArP
without
230 ArP from gear? o.O
Post by
129046
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Post by
363997
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
P.S. - I'm gonna go with the fact the Aadra knows ALOT more about the ArPen debate then you.
We all get our information from the same places. The discussion over at EJ is in fact what he said -- it is feasible with tier-9-level gear to attain hard cap without a trinket proc. Whether or not it is going to be a useful thing to pursue is not tied down yet.
P.S. - Aa was the belligerent one who never believed me about ArP until I took the time out of my day to get the links to the stuff that his lazy butt couldn't be arsed to look up for himself. :)
Post by
curlymon
P.S. - I'm gonna go with the fact the Aadra knows ALOT more about the ArPen debate then you.
We all get our information from the same places. The discussion over at EJ is in fact what he said -- it is feasible with tier-9-level gear to attain hard cap without a trinket proc. Whether or not it is going to be a useful thing to pursue is not tied down yet.
P.S. - Aa was the belligerent one who never believed me about ArP until I took the time out of my day to get the links to the stuff that his lazy butt couldn't be arsed to look up for himself. :)
Yes I recall that discussion quite clearly. And after all the math flying around in there I cannot help but think he'd have a strong grasp of the math behind ArPen :P Far stronger then someone who just read a "ArPen and you" article or post.
A boomkin knows that Haste and Crit are both good for it, and after months of discussion one way or the other Haste came out as the primary stat to stack between the two... But if you did not understand the math behind it you would not know the reasons for this and why it is still important to stack crit and even past that how the whole argument is moot if you have crappy Spell power.
Or an Example closer to home for you ferals. Str vs Agi at different times each better then the other but you really could not explain it all in a short post as to why. Walls of text abounded.
Knowing the numbers to go for and knowing the math behind the numbers are two entirely different situations. :P
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