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If There is No God... (debate)
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Post by
L33tsauce
No one is trying to argue that you have to believe in God to have morals. What we're proposing is that morals
come
from God, whether you give him credit for them or not. :)
Aw,
hells
no.
Go on.
I've never been into discrediting God. I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled the right to have faith in whatever they want and not be questioned. However, I will not stand you to say that God is responsible for morality, weather I give him credit or not. I've got Buddhist doctrine, Norse Pagan beliefs, and Insanist theories that all disagree.
Post by
Malgayne
The whole point of the "If there is no God" hypothetical is to make you stop and think about where morals come from. There are a large number of people out there who believe there is no God, and that we are fundamentally alone in the universe. Yet many of these same people
also
believe that certain actions are right and certain other actions are wrong. Some people even claim that they DON'T believe this, but continue to act as though they do regardless.
I propose that this is a fundamental disconnect in logical reasoning, and the only way to reconcile it is to acknowledge that either there
is
a God of some kind, and he
does
have some opinion on what we do—or there really is no right and wrong in any form, and there is no reason not to behave exclusively out of self-interest.
Post by
TheMediator
It is not a problem with Laihendi's communication, he said it as plain as possible. And Mediator has said
incredibly
offensive things to Laihendi in the past...
Which makes it perfectly moral to hit back, right? :)
What happened in this thread is comparable to Laihendi lightly slapping him across the face, after being impaled by him with a wooden spoon a couple months earlier.
Hate to be rude about it, but seriously, /tissue. You're seriously that sore?
and there is no reason not to behave exclusively out of self-interest.
We're programmed to act out of interest of ourself and our offspring, its basic animal nature. So yes, if you have no conscience, you would act out of self-interest.
Post by
Malgayne
Hate to be rude about it, but seriously, /tissue. You're seriously that sore
Let it go. I like this topic, I'd hate to see it locked.
Post by
Malgayne
I've never been into discrediting God. I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled the right to have faith in whatever they want and not be questioned. However, I will not stand you to say that God is responsible for morality, weather I give him credit or not. I've got Buddhist doctrine, Norse Pagan beliefs, and Insanist theories that all disagree.
Okay. Which one of them is right?
Post by
Laihendi
Laihendi doesn't appreciate it when others claim he is mentally inferior because of his sexuality. He also doesn't appreciate it when others imply that he only pretends to be homosexual to get attention, doubly so since he pretends
not
to be homosexual in real life to avoid getting (negative) attention for it.
Hate to be rude about it, but seriously, /tissue. You're seriously that sore
Let it go. I like this topic, I'd hate to see it locked.
Didn't see it until after the post, sorry.
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
L33tsauce
The whole point of the "If there is no God" hypothetical is to make you stop and think about where morals come from. There are a large number of people out there who believe there is no God, and that we are fundamentally alone in the universe. Yet many of these same people
also
believe that certain actions are right and certain other actions are wrong. Some people even claim that they DON'T believe this, but continue to act as though they do regardless.
I propose that this is a fundamental disconnect in logical reasoning, and the only way to reconcile it is to acknowledge that either there
is
a God of some kind, and he
does
have some opinion on what we do—or there really is no right and wrong in any form, and there is no reason not to behave exclusively out of self-interest.
Oh. Well, put that way, I somewhat agree. If you were referring to
the God
, I couldn't disagree more. I do, however, hold belief that there has to be
something
out there manipulating us.
Post by
Malgayne
We're programmed to act out of interest of ourself and our offspring, its basic animal nature. So yes, if you have no conscience, you would act out of self-interest.
I agree. But this isn't a question of how people
would
behave, it's a question of how they do. I'm saying that if you claim there is no God, but
also
claim that you have cause to act on something more than basic self-interest, you are committing a logical fallacy.
Post by
L33tsauce
I've never been into discrediting God. I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled the right to have faith in whatever they want and not be questioned. However, I will not stand you to say that God is responsible for morality, weather I give him credit or not. I've got Buddhist doctrine, Norse Pagan beliefs, and Insanist theories that all disagree.
Okay. Which one of them is right?
I am but a mere mortal. Who am I to decree which religion is right and which is wrong?
Post by
Deepthought
I propose that this is a fundamental disconnect in logical reasoning, and the only way to reconcile it is to acknowledge that either there is a God of some kind, and he does have some opinion on what we do—or there really is no right and wrong in any form, and there is no reason not to behave exclusively out of self-interest.
Most good can be explained as such:
Humans are social animals.
Humans, as a form of life, generally want thier own species to continue for as long as possible. This is a basic, primal instinct that can be seen in any form of life.
Humans are generally "good", simply because if we were programmed by our inner workings to kill and murder each other all the time, we'd wipe ourselves out within a few years.
Now, from a non-human point of view, there is no right or wrong. But as humans, we are pre-programmed to percive "right" as something we believe will help to keep the species alive and/or pass on our genes.
At least, the above is how I understand the basic workings of life.
while others (like you did) would say it does not.
Why would someone say that it did not exist? I highly doubt most people believe that have percived all there is too the universe.
It would really help if you put from where that fragment was from, I have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm not sure if you're talking about God because you referred to Him as "it." Even I, an atheist, always ensure to name Him properly out of respect for other people; just as I would consider it respect for me if people who do believe in God would not try to argue with me that he exists and be able to look past that and see that I am a good person regardless.
"It" is an event.
Laihendi is saying that if something happens that your senses cannot perceive, and that the impacts cannot be detected by any senses you posses, someone would say that it exists,
while others (like you did) would say it does not.
What I was asking is why we should not believe something, simply because we do not immediately perceive it.
Post by
ShadowM
In my opinion, "God" and etc. was created so people had something to fear in order to listen to their opinion on how to live their life. He/She/It felt as though the way they thought was the right way was the most logical, I have also thought about this subject alot and had a discussion with my classmates about it ( just the intelligent ones ) to see what they thought and they thing my assumption is valid.
Most good can be explained as such:
Humans are social animals.
Humans, as a form of life, generally want thier own species to continue for as long as possible. This is a basic, primal instinct that can be seen in any form of life.
Humans are generally "good", simply because if we were programmed by our inner workings to kill and murder each other all the time, we'd wipe ourselves out within a few years.
^ Yes
Post by
Malgayne
I'm not sure if you're talking about God because you referred to Him as "it." Even I, an atheist, always ensure to name Him properly out of respect for other people; just as I would consider it respect for me if people who do believe in God would not try to argue with me that he exists and be able to look past that and see that I am a good person regardless.
I hope you don't think that anyone here (or at least not me) is saying for a moment that you are not a good person. I make no moral judgements about anyone here. Gandhi didn't believe in the Christian God either but he was by far a better man than I.
What I am proposing is that God is the thing from which all true morals stem. Even if you don't believe in God, the things that you think are "just good things", like love and peace, are "just good things" because
God made it so
.
Post by
TheMediator
I agree. But this isn't a question of how people would behave, it's a question of how they do. I'm saying that if you claim there is no God, but also claim that you have cause to act on something more than basic self-interest, you are committing a logical fallacy.
I dislike the idea that I try to help others in the community simply because a higher being is guiding me to, and not because I want what's best for my fellow person.
Post by
Malgayne
I've never been into discrediting God. I'm a firm believer that everyone is entitled the right to have faith in whatever they want and not be questioned. However, I will not stand you to say that God is responsible for morality, weather I give him credit or not. I've got Buddhist doctrine, Norse Pagan beliefs, and Insanist theories that all disagree.
Okay. Which one of them is right?
I am but a mere mortal. Who am I to decree which religion is right and which is wrong?
Well, they can't
all
be right, they disagree with one another. If you don't actually know what the truth is, listing a bunch of theories that disagree with me (any one of which could be right or wrong) doesn't have any effect on my argument. It's just saying "people disagree with you". I think—and here I get very politically incorrect—that those people are wrong.
I don't think those people are foolish, and I don't think they're bad people. I just disagree with them.
Post by
346682
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Malgayne
I dislike the idea that I try to help others in the community simply because a higher being is guiding me to, and not because I want what's best for my fellow person.
I'm not trying to call you a mercenary. What I'm trying to suggest is that you try and help others in the community not because you're being forced, and not because you're doing it in the hope of some sort of reward. You're trying to do it because it's the
right thing to do
.
But who
says
it's the right thing to do? Why is it that trying to help others in your community should be in any way preferable to just trying to live your life and be happy?
Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Deepthought
But who says it's the right thing to do? Why is it that trying to help others in your community should be in any way preferable to just trying to live your life and be happy?
Uh, I'm not really sure that helping the community isn't going to give you some possible benifits...
Post by
L33tsauce
Well, they can't
all
be right, they disagree with one another. If you don't actually know what the truth is, listing a bunch of theories that disagree with me (any one of which could be right or wrong) doesn't have any effect on my argument. It's just saying "people disagree with you". I think—and here I get very politically incorrect—that those people are wrong.
I don't think those people are foolish, and I don't think they're bad people. I just disagree with them.
You're fully entitled to disagree with them. But, in my personal opinion, Christianity makes the least sense of any religious doctrine I've seen. And I've seen plenty. I mean, they totally ripped off Hel(l) and the Armageddon concept from the Vikings. :l
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