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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
yeah i did flame a lil 2 much on the orcs on my anger fueled rant :( and you brought up some good points.
but still, the orcs don't have that good of a reason to hate the alliance IMO, if i were a human post second war new horde or not i wouldn't trust an orc.
Maybe not, but if Theramore can accept that the Orcs have changed why can't Stormwind? Theramore is the sort-of heir to Lordaeron, if you like, and Lordaeron was the head of the Original Alliance as far as I recall.
To be quite honest, the humans should learn to focus on the tasks at hand rather than their disputes with the orcs, and they have the most positive influence for that, the Draenei. If Varian had enough sense to act more like Velen both the Alliance and the Horde would be in a better position, although Garrosh needs dealing with.
The only difference is that the Draenei did not then try to go and commit genocide on the Orcs as an act of revenge, which Kul Tiras did. And then, Jaina discreetly helped the Horde by not attacking them or by doing anything during the conflict, and she accepted her father was in the wrong, as far as I recall.
The RAS were in the wrong, yes, no one is disputing that. Also, Varian only hears one side of the story, that is true. So did Jaina before she got friendly with Thrall, but she was open-minded enough to realise that there were bigger fish to fry, and in turn realised that the Orcs weren't all the bloodthirsty monsters that they have been painted out to be.
People saying Jaina hasn't been through anything to do with the orcs, her nation was a member of the Alliance, and she was the heir to that nation I think. Ok, it was never invaded and burnt to the ground but look at what she saw happen to Lordaeron, and heard about Quel'Thalas, Dalaran. All places she had links to. She watched her friend and arguably love of her life turn into a part of the Lich King, watched the people of Stratholme be 'purged'. She heard of Garithos' (sp?) mistreatment towards the Blood Elves, who were led by a formerly close friend, and realised humanity wasn't perfect.
I think that Varian needs a wake up call to see that Humans and Orcs are pretty much all the same, only thing is when Stormwind razed to the ground the orcs were under the influence of Demonic Blood, there was not that excuse when Kul Tiras tried to slay the orcs and will not stop until Durotar is the Alliance's, as far as I recall from low level quests in Durotar.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Quel'Thalas was razed and burnt by Orcs, she knew of that and was relatively nearby. Lordaeron would have been attacked by Orcs, which she would have seen.
It still does not change the fact she forgives the Orcs for killing her father and her people. Varian can not, because it was in cold blood, however Garona was under control by others, the Orcs who killed Proudmoore were by their own accord.
My point is that Varian needs to accept the fact that the Orcs are not the same, because they were under the influence of other, darker organisations, and that the Horde is led by a clan that was not corrupted by the Demonic blood. If need be, he can se Gul'Dan's council as Lady Prestor, or the corrupt nobles of Stormwind. He hates them, or hated in Onyxia's case, but knows his people were nothing to do with their actions, and if they were it was not willingly in a lot of the cases.
Also, read what I said about the Draenei and how the Humans can learn from them, because it seems that was ignored.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Supremacy
My point is that Varian needs to accept the fact that the Orcs are not the same
The problem with him doing this is that he's not given any indication - any - that the orcs of today are different than the orcs of old. And to be fair, he's tried. He has genuinely tried to at least make an effort. Varian was not exactly the biggest fan of the orcs before he aggred to team up with them at the Wrathgate, and yet...he was willing to do it, for the greater good.
I think I mentioned before that it would probably do Varian a great deal of good to actually meet even one orc who didn't end up either trying to kill him, burn Stormwind to the ground, betraying their allies, or murdering someone close to him. And not even for a long time, you know? Just if he happened to know an orc who could go, like, for three weeks without doing any of that. He just has really, really bad luck with orcs.
However, Patty132471 did bring up an excellent point. Out of all the races currently playable in World of Warcraft, no one has any more cause to openly hate a race than the Draenei. Demonic blood or not, orcs nearly annihilated them. And yet, the Draenei are not focusing on the orcs, right now. Because, in all honesty, they have bigger problems. Sargeras is #$%^ed at them. They cannot actively afford to concern themselves with the orcs, right now. "No, we can't really worry too much about those orcs. Why not? THERE IS AN ARMY OF DEMONS LED BY A CRAZED GOD CHASING SPECIFICALLY US WHILE TRYING TO DESTROY REALITY." Perspective, y'know?
There are, though, three things the Draenei have going for them that the Humans do not. First of all, their leader is thousands of years old, and has the gift of prophecy. He speaks to the Light. He kind of has an advantage over all of the faction leaders in that aspect. More importantly, though, the orcs are not attacking the Exodar or Draenic settlements, or anything like that. There is no active hostility against the Draenei. You don't have Dranei quests where you have to watch out for orc marauders, or anything like that.
Finally, though, and probably the most important, the Draenei know what it is like to have your people corrupted by demon blood, and watch as they commit acts of nihilistic savagery. They know first hand what it can do. So, I think, it matters a lot more to them when you say something like "I was under the influence of a demon" than it does to humans, or probably any other race for that matter.
Post by
Patty
I think I mentioned before that it would probably do Varian a great deal of good to actually meet even one orc who didn't end up either trying to kill him, burn Stormwind to the ground, betraying their allies, or murdering someone close to him. And not even for a long time, you know?
You don't have Dranei quests where you have to watch out for orc marauders, or anything like that.
Well, Thrall has tried to be nice to him, but I suppose Varian might need to have faith in the people. I think there might in the future be a redemption with Garona, and hope that it happens to be honest.
Also, the Sunfury Blood Elves try killing the Draenei in Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles, and Velen did not know of Kael'Thas' Blood Elves compared to Lor'Themar's.
But I really think Varian could take a leaf out of Velen's book, or even Tirion Fordring's, who also helped an Orc because he could relate them to Humans. The main problem is that Orcs and Humans are pretty similar but are both too headstrong to admit it.
Post by
229054
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Post by
344679
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Supremacy
While Varian would rather have war, some would argue that in his eyes its the best solution.But his eyes see that only because of his own personnal feelings, which as a King, he must ignore.
It has nothing to do with personal feelings. This isn't an emotional decision. Aside from the past history of the Horde, the two most recent lore events are the Wrathgate (and subsequent discoveries in the battle for the undercity), and the attack on Varian by Garrosh.
That alone is enough of a justification to start a war. Even if the Horde and Alliance had been on good terms beforehand.
When you add that with the animosity between those two factions, that's just asking for it.
Personal feelings do not enter the equation. I lost some of my best men when your side betrayed me. You later on said that it was just a rebel faction, and you had no idea what they were doing. While trying to bring them to justice, I discovered evidence that you had been experimenting on my people. Moreover, right in the city. After this, we go to a meeting, and then someone else from your team tries to kill me in broad daylight.
My declaring war on you seems fairly logical after that.
Post by
Skreeran
It's fine to start a war if nothing else was happening, but this is only gonna cause more death on both sides. It isn't going to solve anything when we're already trying to death with the Scourge, what's left of the Burning Legion's forces on Azeroth, an Old God, the Naga, and all sorts of other stuff. Even if the Horde and Alliance don't work together, starting a war between the two is not wise. It would be better if he just kept his forces away from the Horde, if they're actually even a threat.
Post by
344679
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Post by
Skreeran
In response to your point on the Forsaken:
A: Who ever said that the Forsaken hate the Argent Dawn? There's a Forsaken in their ranks, even.
B1: How are they supposed to know that? Forsaken have only started traveling abroad in recent times, and Alliance humans attacked them there.
B2:
I'm sure the Alliance would have tried to kill them anyway...
And the reason Varian's actions seem irrational is because when you're fighting a war on two or more fronts already, and having skirmishes with a third force, the logical action is not to rip open a full blown war on the third force. Deal with the bigger enemies first.
Post by
Supremacy
It's fine to start a war if nothing else was happening, but this is only gonna cause more death on both sides. It isn't going to solve anything when we're already trying to death with the Scourge, what's left of the Burning Legion's forces on Azeroth, an Old God, the Naga, and all sorts of other stuff. Even if the Horde and Alliance don't work together, starting a war between the two is not wise. It would be better if he just kept his forces away from the Horde, if they're actually even a threat.
Here's where I think me and a lot of other people aren't seeing eye to eye on things.
This is not a case, in Varian's eyes, of two big threats and one mediocre threat.
This is a case of three separate threats. They've been ignoring one of them, or at least trying to deal with it and work with it.
This isn't just a matter of that third threat eventually posing a problem. The Horde threat is as real as the Scourge.
This isn't fighting two guys at once, and there's a third guy who
might
jump in.
This is already three guys at once. He's been ignoring that third guy, and that's caused nothing but problems. Until recently, where it cost him lives. And then, that third guy took a swing at him.
I don't really think either side wants war. But I for damn sure understand with why Varian feels it's necessary.
You can't ignore the person who keeps attacking you when your back is turned. You just can't.
Post by
229054
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Post by
46491
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Post by
Skreeran
Well, delterius sylvanas joined the horde because for her own personal gains.
Of course, rarely does a nation joins an alliance if not for it's own personal gains.
What I meant is that while Sylvanas sees her nation under siege by the Scarlet Crusade, the Scourge and the Alliance.She
forgot
her old hatred for the orcs and joined them.And, unlike Varian, she didn't have Jaina to tell her the orcs are different.
I seriously doubt Sylvanas "forgot" her old hatred for the orcs. The Forsaken's membership in the Horde is purely a means to an end. It's all about getting into a better position in order to execute her personal to-do list, which is:
1. Destroy Arthas and the Scourge.
2. Destroy the Scarlet Crusade and the Alliance.
3. Destroy every other living being on the face of Azeroth. (Orcs included)
It has little to do with the new Horde being "different" than the old Horde, and everything to do with them simply being available to take some of the heat off until she can put her ultimate plan into motion. (Which, much to her chagrin, Varimathras and Putress basically started without her.)Honestly I doubt that, especially how Thrall and his Orcs helped her take back the Undercity. I doubt she's beyond gratitude, if not forgiveness.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Honestly I doubt that, especially how Thrall and his Orcs helped her take back the Undercity. I doubt she's beyond gratitude, if not forgiveness.
While we're on that subject, where the hell was Lor'themar Theron? Wouldn't he be in Sylvanas' debt as she was the one who got them in the Horde in the first place?Probably making out with
Grand Magister Rommath
.
Or at least a mirror.
But in all seriousness, I'll let ArgentSun answer this one:
The Battle for Undercity didn't concern neither the Blood Elves, nor the Tauren. Orcs had to attend, Thrall is their leader, and he was personally offended by Putress' betrayal. Trolls go where Orcs do, and Vol'jin has been known to be a very close friend of Thrall - so here we have Throlls battling in Undercity. And finally the presence of Sylvanas and the Forsaken should be pretty obvious - Putress and Varimathras were, after all, thought to be their allies for quite a while. They had the most reasons to be there.
Taurens and Blood Elves...the only reason to join they had was simply that were part of the Horde. Neither was too excited about it though - the Taurens are part of the Horde more because of honorary obligations than anything else - Cairne Bloodhoof respecs Thrall a great deal, but that's all. I believe they'd be just as fine in the Alliance, if it wasn't so full of d-bags who only accept human-like races in their pact. And the Blood Elves...just meh. Their allegiance with the Horde is simply the only option, since they'd never side with the Alliance (semi-slavery, Garithos & Kael'thas).
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