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Powershifting- huh?
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Post by
144872
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Post by
Lightrain
LOL! I think I fixed it. I was doing it on the fly adjusting the old one that I had already modified last night, with people coming in and out of the office. Yes, I'm working. Gotta love slow days! =D
How much does rip tick for? Approximate? Does it equate to 2 shreds and 1 FB? Maybe figure out a way to get more out of it? If they don't crit, you lose what, 2, 3, maybe 4 ticks if unlucky. PS Shred on each to try to get those cp back so you can rip with a 4 or 5cp. Does the rip tick do more than a shred?
Post by
144872
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Post by
121787
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Post by
121787
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Post by
Celdhyrean
Let's try this differently. You're concentrating on a small part of the fight which skews the view. Let's try looking at the result of powershifting over the whole fight.
Suppose you start a fight with 12 100 energy (10 minutes), and suppose you don't ever gain any energy tick. What are you going to use ? The most efficient dpe moves (Mangle, shred, rip). Never will you use any other move, because your energy pool is finite and you know you'll have spent it all before the end of the fight anyway.
Now introduce some powershifting. Powershifting is limited too because of mana constraints. Let's suppose you gain 30 energy per powershift, and you're able to do 20 of them (i have no idea if that's realistic). What it means is that you're finite reserve of energy has been expanded to 12 700 energy. It's still limited, you'll still end at 0 before the end of the fight. Thus, you'll still use the exact same dpe efficient moves. Powershifting doesn't change that.
So now let's get back to reality, you start with 100 and gain energy each tick for 10 minutes. Does the reasonning change ? No, it doesn't : instead of dpsing your heart out until you're at 0 and then do nothing for the end of the fight, the waiting time is interspersed though your different specials.
But the energy limitation still applys
, and thus the requirement to only use dpe efficient moves still applies.
Using a rake before or after a powershift doesn't change the fact that it's ineficient. You still spent energy from your limited pool on it. And that energy is not energy that would have been wasted by the powershift, since you'd wait for another moment of your cycle when you're low on energy to do the powershift.
It doesn't matter wether you do something special immediately before or after, or 30s before or after. Powershifting is a net gain to your energy pool, that adds to your "global" energy pool. Using that energy on a low dpe move is wasting energy. Using it on a high dpe move will always be optimal.
edit :
(actually my hypothetical situation and reality aren't completely similar, since there'll be less shreds during the mangle debuff in reality than if you start with this enormous energy pool. But let's ignore that as it just means that my hypothetic case allows you to do more dps than in reality but doesn't change the skills you'd wish to use)
Post by
Lightrain
Hehe, so anti innovation.
I agree tho. If you abuse this too much, you will cause major problems in the long run.... In raid. I wouldn't be abusing it too much in raid either. A lot of fights have a max dps phase where you have to put out as much dps as possible. Working on a rotation that uses 1/4 of your mana pool for some powershifting, and outputing some more dps may be a good thing. Roll your trinkets at the same time and get the most bang for your mana. =)
But, it could be a fun way to PVP wtf burst a toon with your feral druid. Wait till 30-50% and start power shifting some extra burst damage.
FB IS MORE DPS. That's like saying you should never use mortal strike because it's just burst dps. Or never use heroic strike because it doesn't do as much dpr. At full rage, with cooldowns, they WILL and DO use it. If you HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO, do it. It's not a bad thing. 60% of your raid damage from rip. If you can keep your rip stack AND get a FB in, what's the problem? You have your normal rotation for the other 10-15 minutes of that fight.
Simantics about who goes in what group.... Ya, ya. I did say (if applicable). You probably won't get a Spriest. Yes. If you do, it could help. They don't return a crazy amount of mana, but you could probably do a FB burst spam as shown every minute or so and still be nearly full on mana at all times except just after. You also have potions. Everyone else uses them. Why not the feral druid? Work on it. Get it to about 2-3k mana, and use a potion. Then wait for the cd on your potion and do it again. Extra damage is still more DPS. Whether it be a burst, or sustained. Holding your bleeds and ADDING 3 talent bursts is always a good thing if you can do it safely.
Why don't you just try it and see if you can do it? Not like there's anything better to do when grinding your dailys....
Post by
Celdhyrean
Energy = limited.
Wasting energy = bad
FB = less efficient in terms of energy management than rip/shred/mangle (see Nabs sticky for that)
so FB = wasted energy
=> FB = bad
Post by
Lightrain
You aren't understanding the concept here.
Your standard rotation, works, you get all your combo points, keep rip up all the way thru the fight, and you don't have much play with any other combo points. Maybe losing one or 2 here or there. Maybe more. Right? Your finite energy source allows this rotation. This is on a standard timer of 20e per 2 seconds.
If you add a quick combination of talents with powershifting, you change that set 20e per 2 seconds to 60e per 2 seconds. Effectively, since normally, you can only get 1 talent per 4 seconds(on average), increasing your energy 3 fold allows for more talents in the same time frame. You ARE sacraficing DPE and mana for extra DPS. Also, keep in mind, you are doing 1 talent per 2 seconds instead of 1 talent per 4 or 6 seconds. Your DPE drops because you don't have a cool 60e ownage talent attack that you can use when you powershift to make it more DPE. You sacrafice almost a third of that DPE, but you are doubling the DPS by doing more talents in a short amount of time.
This is BURST damage. Yes. But, combining it with your rotation, adding 2-4 talent high damage attacks if you get lucky crits, while keeping your 60% normal damage Rip bleed up, maybe sacraficing a tick or 2 of rip if you don't get lucky crits, and increasing your mana burning to make up for the crit losses, however, using high damage talents that do instant burst damage in place of these ticks, you lose maybe a little dps from that one talent that sustains your dps, but you GAIN a LOT of BURST damage that makes up for a couple unlucky cp earning attacks that didn't crit, with excess that spills over, making MORE over all damage, which adds to your dps. If you crit twice after a rip refresh, FB, and PS 2 more talents, your rip bleed is STILL ticking. If the 2 talents after the FB don't crit, you have to PS another high damage shred to try for another cp or 2. If that doesn't crit, one more. Then PS your rip back up and get back to your rotation.
It works. If you are still confused, I will do it on the table that shows the energy gains and the rotation when I get home. You are adding "spell" attacks that add damage and combo points with the excess energy from the properly used power shift. You double the number of shreds you can accomplish in the same time frame, but sacrafice 18 of the 60 energy you gain. That makes it less DPE. Not less DPS. This is because you are multiplying your ENERGY PER SECOND by 3, but only multiplying your DAMAGE PER SECOND by 2. Does this make sense? Again, it's hard to accomplish, and hard to do consistantly, but it does work.
Post by
Celdhyrean
You change your energy to 60e/2s, OK. But why waste it on a low dpe move when you can do a high dpe move and profit more from the energy you gained ?
What do we care about how many talents/s you use ? Energy is finite. Therfore DPE is KING. ALWAYS. Powershifting DOES NOT change this. Burst dps or not is not the question. Burst dps uses the same energy your normal rotation is using, powershifting or not.
If you have 4-5 CP and rip is running, mangle or shred are the way to go. FB IS NEVER BETTER.
(except if the mob dies on the FB). You might have the feeling to do a smart use of CPs or whatever, but the truth is, you'll do less damage in the same amount of time.
Powershifting does not change this.
Christ, have you read my post before the last at all ?
AND DPE NEVER CHANGES. DPE IS A CONSTANT. ALWAYS. The rate at which you gain energy can change through powershifting. The rate at which you spent it and the damage you do for each attack DOES NOT change whatever rotation you use. So DPE DOES NOT CHANGE. EVER.
Sorry for getting a bit irritated but i have the feeling i'm talking to a wall and to repeat things i've been saying since the start of the thread for the nth time. (that's probably the same on your side :p)
Please try to address my point on how using energy from the powershift to do whatever does not differ from using energy you have without powershifting (ie you'd want to prove that there is a difference and that other standards apply to that energy gained and as such, not using dpe efficient moves can be good), i think we should be able to progress from there.
Post by
121787
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Post by
Lightrain
I am using the same moves. I'm wasting some of the energy gained from the powershift. nothing more. I'm also using more energy on the highe DPE talents.
ok, to make this simple.
7 seconds, you had 100 energy(never happens) you mangle+rip back to back to open(asuming not in stealth). Even assuming you have a full 4 or 5 cp already on the target. Making this simple, so you don't have to use any other abilities.
100e - 40e
mangle
-30e
rip
=30 energy+20e to start=50e -42e
Shred
=8e
+20e=28e
+20e=48e -42e
shred
=6e
+20e=26e
Normal DPE efficient rotation, you used
Now, if you add well timed powershifts in the mix.
100e - 40e
mangle
-30e
rip
=30 energy+20e to start=50e -42e
Shred
=8e
(loss of 8e)Power Shift=40e
+20e=60e -42e
shred
=18e
(loss of 18e)Power Shift=40e
+20e=60e -42e
shred
=18e(or FB if you crit twice in a row and have 4cp to use =0e)
(loss of 18e) Powershift=40e
+20e=60e -42e
shred
Not using FB alone, I'm doing more DPS with 2 extra shreds in the same time period. I AM WAISTING energy by Power Shifting and abusing that 18e left over, basically saying it's not there. If you ignore the Power Shift gain in energy, I am doing double the DPE of your normal rotation using the 20e per 2 sec timer. But I need the ADDED energy from the Power Shifting to do so, making it less energy efficient.
A good analogy would be a 2 cylinder engine vs a 4 cylinder engine. You use more gas in the 4 cylinder than the 2 cylinder, but you get more bang in a shorter amount of time. The difference being, the druid equivalent of that 2 cylinder engine would be a solar powered motor with the same output. It's free, and always does the same output while in kitty mode.
FB is frowned upon for DPE because it resets you to 0 and offsets your shred / mangle rotation, and you can't squeeze a FB in and still get a top DPS rip out. Thus, reducing your dps because you can't get your rip back out to tick in time, and lose a LOT of dps because of it.
With Power Shift, with some lucky crits at the right time, you can, or at least get close to the same timing incorporating a FB between, using extra combo points from the added DPS of the Power Shift. and the generation of double the amount of combo points.
You may, and probably will sacrafice a tick or 2 of a rip stack, but you are replacing them with
shred
or
mangle
in order to get the extra combo points to get out a full dps
rip
on the target again.
I hope this clarifies my meaning. I can't think of any other ways to demonstrate it.
Post by
Lightrain
If you want to go that route. Power Shifting will increase your energy pool by 300% over a short period of time.
If you use your normal attack worth 50, you can do it 2 times. If you use it with power shifting, you can do it 6 times. The problem is the loss to keep it going continuously is almost equivalent to your normal energy pool. so you effectively gain only 200%. Doubling your attacks you can do.
It is burst because you can't sustain it. That is all.
Post by
144872
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Post by
162103
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Post by
144872
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Post by
Celdhyrean
Lightrain :
It seems you do agree that with your "normal" energy, using the usual cycle is best.
What do you do with 2T4 or OOC procs ? Continue the normal rotation or not ?
Basically, PS can be considered as an energy proc (that you provoke). Why do you treat that energy any differently than normal energy ? That's the base of the disagreement and the point you need to answer.
We don't really need any chart or whatever to try to prove your point, it'll only cover a limited part of the fight and make the analysis difficult because using different cycles you won't powershift at the same time and make the same number of attacks in the same amount of time (and no, more attacks in a small amount of time doesn't mean that it's optimal over the fight).
Post by
109094
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Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Immaterial
Damn I love theorycraft squabbles. Shame I can't understand them.
Next question: How many angels can dance on a pinhead? :)
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