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Warlords of Draenor Paladin Thread!
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Post by
Arannia
Warlords of Draenor Paladin Talent Calculator
Said I'd create a thread to compile all the exciting news about our favourite class in the next expansion! Please note, all of this is subject to change and I will be updating this as regularly as I can. (also, shockadins hnngh ect)
PALADIN SPECIFIC CHANGES/ADDITIONS
Alpha talents are available in the WoD Talent calculator now! In summary, they are The Light Within, Seal of Faith, and Divine Conviction. Links to the specific abilities will be provided when they are available but for now, check out the
Warlords of Draenor Paladin Talent Calculator
.
MECHANICS CHANGES BENEFITING THE PALADIN CLASS
It is said, for now, that primary stats on gear will change as you respec to better fit your new spec. This would mean that all strength on your plate becomes intellect if you respec from Retribution or Protection to Holy.
LORE
For
Blood Knights
specifically, it was mentioned that there will be some new lore regarding, perhaps, Paladins in general and the nature of the
Holy Light
. Speculation abound but it is assumed it will have something to do with the
Naaru
and perhaps a desire of the Blood Knights to "make right" their sins regarding
M'uru
in our timeline.
BLUE POSTS/TWITTER
General
Scaling for all healing and damage spells is now the only source of damage and healing from abilities - no more base damage or base healing. However, base intellect will now
probably
give spellpower as well.
Source 1
Source 2
Mana is likely to be "squished" in a similar way to all other numerical stats in the expansion.
Source 1
Crowd Control
Blizzard says they are removing a whole bunch of redundant CC in the game. I do not believe this will apply to Paladins since we're not heavy on CC although it might mean losing something like Turn Evil at most.
Source 1
Holy
Seal of Faith is designed to offer an alternative method of healing for Holy Paladins, such as Atonement for Priests.
Source 1
Lore
Blood Elf Paladin lore more or less confirmed.
Source 1
Post by
Fetzie
That last one sounds way too OP to make it very far through beta, if I am completely honest. 250% weapon damage as holy, bypassing all armour? In today's money, that would be a guaranteed 400+k non-crit about every 4-5 seconds.
Post by
Arannia
I'd complain more about the lack of imagination in it rather than the actual stats, since we're not even in beta yet. It's basically just a pumped up Templar's Verdict and that's rather boring. Protection is a little better, I love the idea of Holys version though.
Post by
pezz
TWO BEACONS. ARGLEBARLE. TWO BEACONS WITH Divine Purpose/Eternal flame HoT spam.
Post by
GreatePier
I have to agree with Arannia there, compared to the other classes, they don't look any more or less OP for the L100 Talents, but they could've done with some more imagination.
Compared with DK, who basically get an upgrade to their skills, fashioned after one of the better boss fights (IMHO), I'd say Paladins get pretty boring talents... but who knows... they're probably far from final and we may yet end up with an Uther's Hammer for Ret....
Post by
Arannia
Will update the OP with Wowhead links as soon as I can figure out how to link individual talents from the calculator. Until then I'll just link to the calculator!
http://www.wowhead.com/talent-wod#l
Post by
Lordplatypus
We do have 3 paladins to base it off of.
Uther
Turalyon
Tirion
The two things we remember Tirion by are A: His ability to purify ashbringer, and B: Breaking out of ice and shattering frostmourne. This could possibly act as a second PvP+Dps boost+Debuff dispel.
Turalyon rallied the forces of the Alliance against the orcs after Doomhammer stabbed Lothar's back, Turalyon rallied the alliance and defeated the horde. This could be represented by a aura buff, either offensive or more likely, defensive in nature.
Uther was less defined by a single momment, but was rather considered the greatest of the paladins, the Lancalor of their round table. So his ability could be a overall passive buff.
That's just my thoughts.
Post by
Rankkor
Turalyon rallied the forces of the Alliance against the orcs after Doomhammer stabbed Lothar's back,
Doomhammer never stabbed Lothar in the back. They had a duel, Lothar stabbed Doomhammer in the stomach, Doomhammer squashed Lothar's head like a pumpkin with his legendary hammer.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Did he?
I distinctly remember that lothar got stabbed in the back by the blade ontop of the doomhammer during a parlay
Post by
Rankkor
Did he?
I distinctly remember that lothar got stabbed in the back by the blade ontop of the doomhammer during a parlay
That was the old version before warcraft 3. That was completely retconned when they reinvisioned Doomhammer as an honorable orc. Same thing happened with the Eredar, who initially were the ones who corrupted Sargeras, but later were changed into a good race that was corrupted BY sargeras.
In the reinvisioned version, Doomhammer was an honorable orc, who disposed of Blackhand because the way he ran the horde made him sick, he intended to get rid of all the dishonor, all the treachery, and all the malice that was permeating the horde, and personally executed 90% of the shadow council. The only reason he spared gul'dan was because he knew gul'dan could give him powerful units that would give him an edge in the war (Which by this point was impossible to stop. The alliance had already suffered enough damages at the hands of Blackhand and the Shadow Council and a diplomatic end to the war was impossible, it would only end when one side defeated the other so Doomhammer had to make his side win)
At the end, Doomhammer attempted to invade Lordaeron but was betrayed by Gul'dan (he knew the wretch would betray him, but didn't expected it to happen so soon) who took practically half the forces of the horde to the tomb of sargeras (Where he was killed like an animal by the demons locked inside). With his attempted attack on lordaeron repelled (Which would effectively had ended the war and make the horde victorious) Doomhammer retreated back to Blackrock Mountain, and that's where the final battle was waged between the alliance and the horde.
Lothar rallied the forces of the alliance, Doomhammer led the horde forces for their final stand. And during that battle, Lothar and Doomhammer dueled one on one, both of them forbade their respective troops to interfere with the duel as they wanted the battle to be done with honor. During the duel, Doomhammer managed to smash Lothar's sword in two, but Lothar managed to use his clipped sword to slice Doomhammer a NASTY gash in his abdomen. However, this let him exposed and Doomhammer ended the duel with a swift hammer to the head, squashing lothar like a tomato.
At the end, (All of this is described in the book Tides of Darkness which you REALLY should read) both adversaries respected one another, there was no hate, and no vengeance in their duel, just two professionals on opposite sides of the field of battle, and even tough Doomhammer had won, he was no longer in any condition to fight, Lothar gave him a pretty solid thrashing, so Turalyon had little difficulty in defeating the battered and bruised orc, and with his fall, the rest of the orcish army fell soon after.
Think about it, would it make sense for a guy called DOOM
HAMMER
to be going around stabbing people? his iconic weapon was a hammer (same one Thrall is using today) and his signature fighting style was using said hammer to turn his enemies into squishy goo.
Post by
Lordplatypus
And this new version meant to whitewash doomhammer so that metzen could have his favorite race be good was real?
Doomhammer had lothar murdered en-route to parlay by a small army.
Stabbed in the back is metaphoric and if you looked at the comparative sizes of the Doomhammer and A.L.'s blade, there's little to no way the former can overpower the later.
Doomhammer's own death was a lance to the back as he turned tail to run, if he were truly cappable of besting the lion of azeroth (which was later renamed to stormwind) in single combat, how could a regular knight slay him?
because he didn't.
The only reasonable version is that he had Lothar murdered en-route to parlay.
Also, does this sound anything like the Doomhammer we know?
He practically does to the humans what the nazis did to the soviets, attempt to kill all of them to make a new home for themselves. They wreck their own place and take over someone else's? That's nothing honorable.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##Call it forum etiquette but don't Godwin.
Post by
Arannia
This is getting a bit irrelevant guys. Hate to be
that guy
, but please keep it on topic!
Post by
Rankkor
And this new version meant to whitewash doomhammer so that metzen could have his favorite race be good was real?
It doesn't matter if you like it or not, THAT is the canon, and you gotta accept it.
Doomhammer had lothar murdered en-route to parlay by a small army.
Again, that's old retconned lore.
On the same old retconed lore, the northshire priests were actual catholic priests that worshiped God, but that's not canon anymore. On that same vein, the daemons summoned by the orc warlocks were actual minions of Satan from Hell, but that too is not canon anymore. Paladins in warcraft 2 used to speak with a really creepy booming echo voice, but that's also not canon anymore. Grom Hellscream used to have a really high-pitch smurf-like voice in warcraft 2, but that's also not canon. Garona used to be half-human and half-orc but that's not canon anymore she's half-orc and half-draenei. The nation of Dalaran was a cross-shaped island in warcraft 2 but that's not canon anymore.
The list goes on and on, but what I'm trying to get at here, is that everything that happens in Warcraft 1 and 2 needs to be completely disregarded save for the most basic of the basic of details, such as the horde winning the first war, and the alliance winning the second one. But the new canon for both continuities is in the Books "The Last Guardian" "Tides of Darkness" and "Beyond the Dark Portal"
Stabbed in the back is metaphoric
is it? just two posts above you said you "distinctly remember" doomhammer literally personally stabbing lothar with a blade encrusted on top of his hammer (for the record, the doomhammer has no such blade on top of it, it is really a blunt weapon). Make up your mind mate.
and if you looked at the comparative sizes of the Doomhammer and A.L.'s blade, there's little to no way the former can overpower the later.
You're implying the Doomhammer was a small weapon. It wasn't. In the lore it takes 3 human men to lift it. If you still don't believe me, log into wow right now and go to stormwind, to the valley of heroes, see the statues? yeah, there's a reason why the
statue
of Turalyon is wielding a broken blade. And why in all official artwork Turalyon is depicted
wielding
a shattered blade. That's because Doomhammer smashed Lothar's sword during their duel, and defeated him in honorable combat. Turalyon then picked up the broken sword and the shield of Lothar and carried on his legacy. For further proof (I back up my claims with more than hot air)
Here
is the main article about the sword of Lothar.
And regardless of how much you dislike it, it wont make it any less true.
Doomhammer's own death was a lance to the back as he turned tail to run, if he were truly cappable of besting the lion of azeroth (which was later renamed to stormwind) in single combat, how could a regular knight slay him?
Two things: A: Doomhammer was not fleeing, he was helping liberate a concentration camp and during the battle, he fell in combat when a knight attacked him from behind during the fray.
B: That knight was able to slay him because Doomhammer was already a very very old man, and the knight had the advantage of being mounted on a horse, which I don't need to state, gives you a huge advantage in a melee brawl
because he didn't.
Yes he did and no matter how badly it stings that's not gonna change.
The only reasonable version is that he had Lothar murdered en-route to parlay.
Nope, THAT would be unreasonable, because Lothar died right at the very end of the war, in the final battle between the horde and the alliance, LONG after the alliance had ceased to try to parlay.
Also, does this sound anything like the Doomhammer we know?
Yep. The doomhammer you know is the one from Warcraft 1 and 2, which was completely retconned just as the Eredar were retconned from being the corruptors of Sargeras, to being a noble race that was corrupted BY sargeras.
The Doomhammer I know is the one from Lord of the Clans, and Rise of the Horde, and Tides of Darkness (the book) and THAT is the canon doomhammer. What is more canon I ask of you? two games that barely had any chance to deeply explore the most basic personalities of its protagonists? and which 90% of their content is no longer relevant (again, dalaran was an island in the shape of a cross, that's nowhere near how it is in the game) or 3 really long, really detailed books that revised and expanded the personalities of every major character, alliance and horde, during those 2 games?
Whenever it comes to lore, Book > game. That's always has been, and always will be, the most fundamental basic tenet of how the story goes in this game.
He practically does to the humans what the nazis did to the soviets, attempt to kill all of them to make a new home for themselves. They wreck their own place and take over someone else's? That's nothing honorab
Come on man, godwin's law? seriously? that's the best you can come up with when you run out of ideas?
Post by
Lordplatypus
It doesn't matter if you like it or not, THAT is the canon, and you gotta accept it.
If it's canon, then A.L. could be beaten by a idiot orc with a hammer.
You're implying the Doomhammer was a small weapon. It wasn't. In the lore it takes 3 human men to lift it. If you still don't believe me, log into wow right now and go to stormwind, to the valley of heroes, see the statues? yeah, there's a reason why the statue of Turalyon is wielding a broken blade. And why in all official artwork Turalyon is depicted wielding a shattered blade. That's because Doomhammer smashed Lothar's sword during their duel, and defeated him in honorable combat. Turalyon then picked up the broken sword and the shield of Lothar and carried on his legacy. For further proof (I back up my claims with more than hot air) Here is the main article about the sword of Lothar.
First off, the Doomhammer is generally shown as a single-handed weapon, comparable to a Wildhammer Gryphon Rider's famous throwing hammers. It's not made of Mjonir, it's a grannite rock attached to a stick.
On the other hand, the Sword of Lothar was shown as a massive jeweled runeblade, which would generally have more power to it's blows, and greater reach than the doomhammer.
And regardless of how much you dislike it, it wont make it any less true.
gives you a huge advantage in a melee brawl
Actually, getting in a melee brawl on a horse is the worst possible way to fight.
You charge in, smash their formation, get out and charge in again. In a melee brawl you'll get pulled off.
But not in WCIII where the knights DONT EVEN USE THEIR DAMN LANCES
Come on man, godwin's law? seriously? that's the best you can come up with when you run out of ideas?
It's actually quite fighting.
The Concept of Glasnost or "Living Space" is quite literally what Orgrim wanted out of Azeroth.
It's seperate from the concept of Israel and Christopher columbus by the reason not being raw resources or cultural home but merely more pliable land for their population.
Two things: A: Doomhammer was not fleeing, he was helping liberate a concentration camp and during the battle, he fell in combat when a knight attacked him from behind during the fray.
B: That knight was able to slay him because Doomhammer was already a very very old man, and the knight had the advantage of being mounted on a horse, which I don't need to state, gives you a huge advantage in a melee brawl
A: He was indeed falling back under the chaos thrall caused because the POW camp they were trying to ransack were wiser than the last few and had knights nearby, which throughly stomped their forces. Knights are hardly steathy, and a charging one less so.
Nope, THAT would be unreasonable, because Lothar died right at the very end of the war, in the final battle between the horde and the alliance, LONG after the alliance had ceased to try to parlay.
It was more or less a "you're not going to last forever, just surender" parlay. These things happen.
Whenever it comes to lore, Book > game. That's always has been, and always will be, the most fundamental basic tenet of how the story goes in this game.
It's always been RTS Games->Books->WoW->Anything with metzen's greasy paw on it.
Post by
Rankkor
It doesn't matter if you like it or not, THAT is the canon, and you gotta accept it.
If it's canon, then A.L. could be beaten by a idiot orc with a hammer.
That "idiotic orc with a hammer" happens to be one of the greatest orc warriors to have ever lived. Lothar himself admited during the duel that he was facing an equal adversary. This is because Doomhammer refused to drink the demon blood, and as a result, he wasn't a bloodthirsty mindless berserker, he fought with a cool head, and a sound strategy. This very same orc managed to overpower his guards, while having a very nasty gash on his stomach (Courtesy of Lothar) and escaped when he was being brought in chains to lordaeron. He even managed to bring his weapon and armor with him.
Besides, why does it stings so much? nobody is undefeatable, in wars people die, big shock sherlock. Also, the same rule applies to Doomhammer himself, just because he defeated Lothar doesn't make him unbeatable, an idiotic knight with a stick killed him. It happens. Deal with it.
First off, the Doomhammer is generally shown as a single-handed weapon, comparable to a Wildhammer Gryphon Rider's famous throwing hammers. It's not made of Mjonir, it's a grannite rock attached to a stick.
Actually Mjonir IS a comparable weapon to the Doomhammer. Its not "granite on a stick" otherwise it wouldn't GLOW when Thrall wields it. And its a single-handed weapon in the hands of an orc, which I'll remind you are twice as large as humans in the lore. And its a testament to just how powerful it is, that it has been used as a weapon of war for 4 generations and while the handle has had to be replaced multiple times, the actual hammer head has endured the passage of time, and the usage of at least 3 known famous lore figures.
On the other hand, the Sword of Lothar was shown as a massive jeweled runeblade, which would generally have more power to it's blows, and greater reach than the doomhammer.
You mean
this sword
? it was an ornamental weapon, a ceremonial weapon, and it proved its quality when it met the doomhammer and it cracked in two.
Again, you can cover your eyes and ears if you want, but its not gonna make it go away, that sword was shattered in two by the doomhammer when Lothar and Orgrimm fought. Its currently shown as broken both in the valley of heroes, as well as every single official artwork of Turalyon.
Actually, getting in a melee brawl on a horse is the worst possible way to fight.
You charge in, smash their formation, get out and charge in again. In a melee brawl you'll get pulled off.
But not in WCIII where the knights
DONT EVEN USE THEIR DAMN LANCES
The knight that charged at Orgrimm did used his, and that's how he was defeated, a knight charged at him from behind, and pierced his back with a spear. I'll remind you that Orgrimm was very old at this point (basically pushing 70) and exhausted after the battle.
It was more or less a "you're not going to last forever, just surender" parlay. These things happen.
Dude, read the frikking book okay? I'm not gonna have this discussion with you, if you're gonna refuse to read the book just because you like the previous version better. Next thing we know you're gonna start claiming that Lothar had a diamond-encrusted beard even though not a single spec of lore ever said such a thing.
It's always been RTS Games->Books->WoW->Anything with metzen's greasy paw on it.
Man, I could write a short essay on just how much material from Warcraft 1 and 2 has been retconned. From Dalaran being a cross-shapped island, to Stormwind's priests being catholic and worshiping jesus, to Garona being a half-human hybrid, to Grom having a high-pitched voice, to a heck of a lot more. Face it man, Warcraft 1 and 2 were retconned, the version that is canon is in the books, and if you're not gonna read them and prefer to live in Tra-la-la Land then this discussion is pointless.
Post by
Arannia
This is getting a bit irrelevant guys. Hate to be
that guy
, but please keep it on topic!
guys please :( take it to the lore forums.
Post by
pezz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJHn5tSZzoE
Post by
atomicwolf22
Hmm the talent Light from within looks good for rets.
But I guess we will have to wait 6 months for the ptr to find out.
Post by
Lordplatypus
That "idiotic orc with a hammer" happens to be one of the greatest orc warriors to have ever lived. Lothar himself admited during the duel that he was facing an equal adversary.
Because all Doomhammer did was an overhead blow that broke the sword.
It wasn't doomhammer's skill, it was just that the sword broke.
This is the same way they did in cairne.
Actually Mjonir IS a comparable weapon to the Doomhammer. Its not "granite on a stick" otherwise it wouldn't GLOW when Thrall wields it. And its a single-handed weapon in the hands of an orc, which I'll remind you are twice as large as humans in the lore. And its a testament to just how powerful it is, that it has been used as a weapon of war for 4 generations and while the handle has had to be replaced multiple times, the actual hammer head has endured the passage of time, and the usage of at least 3 known famous lore figures.
ANY weapon can glow when a shaman's using it, they just do that "Element+Other Word Weapon" thing.
Again, you can cover your eyes and ears if you want, but its not gonna make it go away, that sword was shattered in two by the doomhammer when Lothar and Orgrimm fought. Its currently shown as broken both in the valley of heroes, as well as every single official artwork of Turalyon.
A broken sword doesn't prove anything other than that it broke. Oh and it's no mere ornament considering Anduin Lothar cuts down orc after orc with it.
which I'll remind you are twice as large as humans in the lore.
This holds up perfectly fine when EVERY piece of artwork has shown them being comparable in scale to the difference between a Elf and a Human.
The knight that charged at Orgrimm did used his, and that's how he was defeated, a knight charged at him from behind, and pierced his back with a spear. I'll remind you that Orgrimm was very old at this point (basically pushing 70) and exhausted after the battle.
Yes impaled on a lance, the whole point there was proving your point about "Mounts give an edge in melee brawls" wrong.
Dude, read the frikking book okay? I'm not gonna have this discussion with you, if you're gonna refuse to read the book just because you like the previous version better. Next thing we know you're gonna start claiming that Lothar had a diamond-encrusted beard even though not a single spec of lore ever said such a thing.
Coming from the man who can't see Aethas is guilty, the one who can't see Kael'thas's Narcissistic egotism, and basically holds the blood elves as mary sue and gary stu, that's a compliment.
guys please :( take it to the lore forums.
*In childish voice* HE STARTED IT!
Either way, I refuse to accept lore that makes no sense and only exists to whitewash a mass-murdering sociopathic lunatic.
Post by
Nooska
Either way, I refuse to accept lore that makes no sense and only exists to whitewash a mass-murdering sociopathic lunatic.
Still, take it to the lore forums, please - don't come in here and throw around your lore in "my" game mechanics thread :p
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