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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
4dehorde
So...wait, allying with the Grimtotem is a bad thing; what does that call Baine for offering amnesty to Grimtotems then, since there are Grimtotems who are currently part of the Horde as well. You should ask Baine that question too, since what is good for the goose is good for the gander as well.
However, the fact is, that the Alliance has never used a horror weapon like the Horde has, and if a nation did, they would more then likely be kicked out of the Alliance for doing so.
Edit: You also see it again and again on Pandaria: A lot of Alliance commanders want to use the power of the Sha/Mogu weapons, and Varian tells those commanders to not sink to that level, or they would answer to him.
Edit 2: Also, in regards to Camp Taurajo: Why is that so much worse then what the Forsaken did to Southshore? After all, it was another civilian town, only in this case they were hit with weapons that caused them to melt from the inside out and then when some of the people survived and escaped, they were killed after accepting the help of the Gilnean Worgen. Same situation, different faction...don't they deserve revenge just as much as the Tauren who died in the Camp did?
It is entirely different for Baine. As the High Chief, he feels obligated to be a good leader. He is relatively new to the job, and he likely did not want to start his reign with an act of cruelty. He is offering the Grimtotem a chance to redeem themselves, and that is noble of him. The Alliance meanwhile are ignoring the crimes of the Grimtotem simply to use them and their murderous ways against the Horde.
The Alliance may not have used a superweapon, yet, but they have done things akin to using a superweapon. The Taurajo Massacre is the most notable. The genocide of the Shatterspear Tribe, while less known, is still another. I have seen the Alliance do terrible things over and over time and time again, more than many fans, including you, are willing to admit.
I play Horde almost exclusively, so I know little of what the Alliance side is like in Pandaria. Even if that is true, I still don't put it past the Alliance to use superweapons. If it is true though, I will give props to Varian for that. Still hate him though.
As I have pointed out time and time again, Southshore is different than Taurajo on several levels, a stronger military presence, and by stronger I mean actually having one, being most notable. Yes, the people of Southshore are justified in any action they take towards vengeance, but I don't expect the Forsaken to just lay down their arms and take that vengeance. The moment they joined the worgen the Hillsbrad survivors took their fate into their own hands, and the risks that come with it. My point is, while they are justified to seek revenge, the Forsaken are equally justified to defend themselves from it.
So...just going to gloss over the fact that civilians were killed in Southshore too? Alright then.
And yes the Camp was a military target....because it led into Mulgore; it was the only path in that did not involve going over the mountains. Also, at least with the Camp they did try to let the Civilians escape...the people of Southshore got no such reprieve and died as the town was bombarded by the Blight.
I am not ignoring the fact that civilians were killed at Southshore, no matter what you say or think. I have pointed out over and over while its true civilians died at Southshore, regrettable as that may be, the attack itself was completely justified, whereas there is no justification for the Taurajo Massacre.
In order to be a military target the town needs to have a military presence, so by official definition it is not a military target. Your apparent definition of military target is not the generally accepted one. Tell me, how do you know they tried to let civilians escape? Were your characters there to witness the attack? You only have General Hawthorne's word to go on, and that is not enough for me. Also, quite a few more people survived Southshore than Taurajo, as shown by the sheer number of them who became worgen later.
Post by
Adamsm
Also, quite a few more people survived Southshore than Taurajo, as shown by the sheer number of them who became worgen later.And then get slaughtered by the hundreds....
But really: The Camp was considered a strategic point to strike at....because one more time:
it was right at the entrance to Mulgore
and if the Alliance could take that location, they could bottle up the Tauren, and keep them from reinforcing other locations in the Southern Barrens, since they wouldn't want to leave their homeland defenseless.
But in all honesty, no matter what is said here, you don't care. Horde good, Alliance bad; same stuff you always say.
So on that note, have a nice day.
Post by
4dehorde
Also, quite a few more people survived Southshore than Taurajo, as shown by the sheer number of them who became worgen later.And then get slaughtered by the hundreds....
But really: The Camp was considered a strategic point to strike at....because one more time:
it was right at the entrance to Mulgore
and if the Alliance could take that location, they could bottle up the Tauren, and keep them from reinforcing other locations in the Southern Barrens, since they wouldn't want to leave their homeland defenseless.
But in all honesty, no matter what is said here, you don't care. Horde good, Alliance bad; same stuff you always say.
So on that note, have a nice day.
They got slaughtered for taking up arms against the Forsaken. As I pointed out the Forsaken are justified in defending themselves. Or do you think they should have just laid down their arms and let the worgen rip them to shreds?
Strategic point or not, the Alliance did not have to go about the attack the way that they did, or even commit it in the first place, seeing as how their entire invasion was uncalled for. The outright slaughter of civilians is never justified, even during war.
There you go again, resorting to untruths. I admit I am Horde biased, but I am not blind. I see both sides do good and evil, as I have pointed out time and time again, both here and other places. But I have yet to meet a single Alliance fan who will admit their side has done wrong, and you are no exception.
Anyone else got anything to add? I'm still curious.
Post by
Adamsm
The outright slaughter of civilians is never justified, even during war. Unless the Forsaken are doing it of course.
No, I've admitted many times where the Alliance has made mistakes; however, acting like Southshore is a justified place to kill civilians, then spin around and act like the Camp is the ultimate evil, when it's the exact same situation, is just being hard headed.
Post by
4dehorde
The outright slaughter of civilians is never justified, even during war. Unless the Forsaken are doing it of course.
No, I've admitted many times where the Alliance has made mistakes; however, acting like Southshore is a justified place to kill civilians, then spin around and act like the Camp is the ultimate evil, when it's the exact same situation, is just being hard headed.
No, its not okay then either, as I've said already.
Except I didn't do that. And I haven't seen you do any such thing once.
Post by
620690
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
They got slaughtered for taking up arms against the Forsaken.
So uh, I'm a little confused. What were they supposed to do when the Forsaken invaded their lands? Surrender and be turned into mindless drones like we've already seen the Forsaken do? We don't see any prisoners with the Forsaken who aren't used as test subjects for their horrible plagues or slave labor. The Forsaken aren't the ones defending themselves- the Hillsbradians and Gilneans are. It's not "revenge" to fight back when a horde of merciless, cannibalistic, plague-tossing undead invade your lands in order to raise your dead against their will.
I must disagree. Pretty much all of the quests in Silverpine Forest revolve around the Forsaken defending themselves from the Gilnean invasion. What the Hillsbrad humans were doing after they turned into worgen was in fact revenge. What Maleb himself says before drinking the worgen blood is "We choose vengeance!". It would have been defense if they stayed behind to defend Southshore, but they fled.
I think you're confused. I am not saying the Hillsbrad humans who became worgen were unjustified to seek revenge, they are, I'm saying the Forsaken are justified just as much to defend themselves.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah....well except for that whole 'Forsaken invade Gilneas and destroy Southshore' thing...
Post by
4dehorde
Yeah....well except for that whole 'Forsaken invade Gilneas and destroy Southshore' thing...
Just what are you saying?
Post by
620690
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah....well except for that whole 'Forsaken invade Gilneas and destroy Southshore' thing...
Just what are you saying?
That after the Cataclysm broke the Wall, the Forsaken forces invaded Gilneas, laid siege to their capitol city, the Banshee Queen killed the crown prince of the country, and then proceeded to attempt to wipe out every last trace of any and all worgen who had escaped the original slaughter.
And you know...made a city uninhabitable, killed innocent civilians, had some of their people captured by a insane Forsaken scientist who buried them in the ground and let ghouls eat them, and once the survivors of that city found what they thought were allies, were utterly wiped out.
Did I miss anything there?
Post by
4dehorde
I must disagree. Pretty much all of the quests in Silverpine Forest revolve around the Forsaken defending themselves from the Gilnean invasion. What the Hillsbrad humans were doing after they turned into worgen was in fact revenge. What Maleb himself says before drinking the worgen blood is "We choose vengeance!". It would have been defense if they stayed behind to defend Southshore, but they fled.
I think you're confused. I am not saying the Hillsbrad humans who became worgen were unjustified to seek revenge, they are, I'm saying the Forsaken are justified just as much to defend themselves.
But they're not justified because they're the aggressor in every event. Besides the Seventh Legion invasion of Gilneas, the Forsaken are the ones who invade every time. If you stomped into someone's house, punched them in the face, and declared their house yours, you still wouldn't be justified if you punched them again after they told you to get the hell out.
Also: Stayed behind to defend Southshore? How? The only reason they survived is because they fled before the blight could turn them into puddles of goo. It's better for them to have "defended" Southshore and almost assuredly died by magic acid then to flee and try to keep the Forsaken from continuing their conquest?
That is where I believe you are wrong. I believe self defense is always justified, and the Forsaken were acting in self defense during the Gilnean invasion, which began before the Seventh Legion arrived. The Gilneas Liberation Front invaded Lordaeron weeks before Alliance reinforcements arrived. No, but I would be justified if they chased me back to my house and tried to take it over instead. That is what the Forsaken were doing in Silverpine.
You're missing the point. I'm saying because they did not stay behind to defend Southshore, their actions after becoming worgen cannot be called defense.
Edit:
That after the Cataclysm broke the Wall, the Forsaken forces invaded Gilneas, laid siege to their capitol city, the Banshee Queen killed the crown prince of the country, and then proceeded to attempt to wipe out every last trace of any and all worgen who had escaped the original slaughter.
And you know...made a city uninhabitable, killed innocent civilians, had some of their people captured by a insane Forsaken scientist who buried them in the ground and let ghouls eat them, and once the survivors of that city found what they thought were allies, were utterly wiped out.
Did I miss anything there?
The Forsaken did MOST of that, except when they were fighting the worgen in Silverpine it was self defense. And again, when the Hillsbrad humans turned into worgen and attacked in revenge, it was self defense for the Forsaken. And your exaggerating the size of Southshore. It was a town, not a city. But again, what is the point you are trying to make?
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
620690
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
That is where I believe you are wrong. I believe self defense is always justified, and the Forsaken were acting in self defense during the Gilnean invasion, which began before the Seventh Legion arrived. The Gilneas Liberation Front invaded Lordaeron weeks before Alliance reinforcements arrived. No, but I would be justified if they chased me back to my house and tried to take it over instead. That is what the Forsaken were doing in Silverpine.
You're missing the point. I'm saying because they did not stay behind to defend Southshore, their actions after becoming worgen cannot be called defense.
So insurgency isn't defense, is what you're saying here. Retaliation isn't defense. There was no other option for the Worgen to retaliate besides to attack Silverpine because the only people willing to aid them at the time were the Bloodfang pack- Oh, who also were in Silverpine before the Gilneans and even perhaps before the Forsaken. Gilneas City was under the control of the Forsaken, so the Worgen had no place TO defend. The Forsaken didn't give them the option. Their options were to either flee the country completely or try their best to keep the Forsaken from mobilizing even more troops to further the occupation of their country. It's defense to take out your enemies supply lines in order to help the homefront, not revenge.
Except the Gilneas Liberation Front wasn't in Silverpine to conduct insurgency. It was there on a mission of conquest. Crowley himself says their mission was to take Lordaeron for the Alliance.
Post by
620690
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
Except the Gilneas Liberation Front wasn't in Silverpine to conduct insurgency. It was there on a mission of conquest. Crowley himself says their mission was to take Lordaeron for the Alliance.
Let's see here. Burning horde ships to prevent reinforcements. Staging blitz attacks against cities and outposts. Cutting supply lines to and from Silverpine by pretending to be bears(kind of retarded, yeah, but hey). If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it's not a full scale invasion. The only thing they were doing was insurgency- sure, it was part of a grander plan but that doesn't mean that the current mission was to drive the Forsaken back and as I said, it's completely possible the Bloodfang pack IS defending their home.
You may have me there, but as for the Bloodfang pack mess, keep in mind the Forsaken have had a presence in Silverpine for quite some time, since close to their formation. The Sepulcher and northern outposts have been in-game since vanilla. It's just with Cataclysm and beyond we see the Forsaken expand their territory in Silverpine to the entire forest, so don't go saying the Forsaken have absolutely no claim to Silverpine. And the Bloodfang pack was pretty invested in their own invasion of Gilneas, as the worgen starter quests show. The Forsaken could have expanded in Silverpine during that time.
Post by
Adamsm
The Forsaken did MOST of that, except when they were fighting the worgen in Silverpine it was self defense. And again, when the Hillsbrad humans turned into worgen and attacked in revenge, it was self defense for the Forsaken. And your exaggerating the size of Southshore. It was a town, not a city. But again, what is the point you are trying to make?
No, they did all of that; I'd suggest making a Alliance Worgen and run through the starting zone and see the other half of the Gilneas-Forsaken War.
Those of the Bloodfang Pack were those left over after the original experiments of Argual and Pyrewood village; they were fighting for their homes after the Forsaken destroyed their city, and invaded their allies country. It's also not self-defense; it's War, it's really that simple.
I'm really not exaggerating the size of it: Lore wise, Southshore was the largest port in the North that was not Stratholme or Gilneas; you saw that very clearly in the book 'Tides of Darkness'. And as PsycoZombie already said: Anyone who remained behind in Southshore would have been oozed and dead; there is no point in trying to defend a radioactive wasteland.
There was nothing about self-defense in the war from Silverpine to Arathi: It's all about Forsaken conquest and driving out the people who were already there. Gilneas destroyed, Southshore and the human population of Hillsbrad wiped out, Ambermill destroyed, Stromgarde taken...and all of those lands did not belong to the kingdom of Lordaeron in the first place, so it's not even a matter of 'taking back the homelands'.
Post by
620690
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
4dehorde
The Forsaken did MOST of that, except when they were fighting the worgen in Silverpine it was self defense. And again, when the Hillsbrad humans turned into worgen and attacked in revenge, it was self defense for the Forsaken. And your exaggerating the size of Southshore. It was a town, not a city. But again, what is the point you are trying to make?
No, they did all of that; I'd suggest making a Alliance Worgen and run through the starting zone and see the other half of the Gilneas-Forsaken War.
Those of the Bloodfang Pack were those left over after the original experiments of Argual and Pyrewood village; they were fighting for their homes after the Forsaken destroyed their city, and invaded their allies country. It's also not self-defense; it's War, it's really that simple.
I'm really not exaggerating the size of it: Lore wise, Southshore was the largest port in the North that was not Stratholme or Gilneas; you saw that very clearly in the book 'Tides of Darkness'. And as PsycoZombie already said: Anyone who remained behind in Southshore would have been oozed and dead; there is no point in trying to defend a radioactive wasteland.
There was nothing about self-defense in the war from Silverpine to Arathi: It's all about Forsaken conquest and driving out the people who were already there. Gilneas destroyed, Southshore and the human population of Hillsbrad wiped out, Ambermill destroyed, Stromgarde taken...and all of those lands did not belong to the kingdom of Lordaeron in the first place, so it's not even a matter of 'taking back the homelands'.
I did, believe it or not. And its a mute point anyway. The worgen starter quests do not show what happened in Silverpine afterwards, which was largely the worgen attacking the Forsaken in Forsaken land.
I still wouldn't call Southshore a city. Its a large town to be more accurate. Or rather, it was.
You are also missing the point. I never argued whether or not there was a point in defending Southshore, I was saying to flee the town and attack later is not defense.
Really? One of the first quests in northern Silvepine involves slaying worgen terrorists. One of the text the Forsaken troopers say is "They won't take our land without a fight!" Sounds a lot like defense to me. And the Forsaken have not taken Stromgarde, yet. The furthest they've gotten into Arathi is Galen's Fall.
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