This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
Do you believe in God?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Gone
edit: BTW, I once heard that there really is no hell in the old testament and it was a new testament idea. Is that true or is it more that hell isn't part of Jewish teachings and therefore gets attributed to NT?
No, there is no Hell in Jewish belief. Except for Messianic Jews who believe in Christ and the new testament. Although they wouldn't be considered Jewish by most Jews, they would be considered Christians of Jewish descent.
Furthermore most of the popular images we have of Hell are not based in the new testament either.
Well the religious crowd have got their teeth sunk right into Soldrethar and they ain't letting go.
It doesn't look good if you read the thread and the lack of tolerance shown of an other person's opinion is really disappointing. It was an opinion not an insult that Soldrethar gave and we were asked to show respect for other peoples opinion but this is obviously only to apply for one side.
You're being too overly sensitive. Nobodys ganging up on Sold, he just happens to be in separate arguments with several different people. Stop acting like the religious side of this debate is ganging up on the other side.
Post by
MyTie
@Sold - Thanks for answering my question. It sounds like you are very passionate about your beliefs. We both have that passion in common, though, about differing specific beliefs. I encourage you to keep your passion, through life. That will serve you well.
@civgw - This would be the first time that I've seen a majority on the side of the religious participating in a thread. I'm not sure that having a majority is a bad thing, for one "side" or the other. I don't think that either "side" is very homogeneous. I'm not sure why you are seeing personal attacks on Sold. I think people are being critical of his assertions, but not his person.
@Ryja - I think that Jesus speaks pretty "fire and brimstone", and that Hell is a very real thing, though I would have trouble isolating the exact nature of what it is, because of my limited information. Revelation gives a pretty descript account, though much of that is likely proverbial.
@Magician & Ryja - It is my suggestion that you temper your responses to Sold with some amount of indifference, bordering on stoic. It would be much more effective to answer emotion with logic. It provides a nice contrast for the rest of the readers.
Post by
Magician22773
@Magician & Ryja - It is my suggestion that you temper your responses to Sold with some amount of indifference, bordering on stoic. It would be much more effective to answer emotion with logic. It provides a nice contrast for the rest of the readers.
MyTie,
No offence,,,and I really mean
no offence
intended here (the last thing I want is in-fighting), but I really think you should do what I just did, and re-read this thread....both your posts, and mine.
I have had more interaction between myself and the moderators, over being a little ticked off that my post was removed (presumably without a report, since it was up for all of about 30 seconds before being yanked), and Sold's posts (both the initial flame, and then 3 pages of what seemed like nothing but "trolling" with the whole "I don't understand the verse" issue), that still are up, even though I have both reported them, as well as asked directly in the thread for them to be removed, then I have had with Sold directly.
So far, with the exception of 1 post, that was intended to be more of a joke than anything, I have been pretty damn civil in this argument. In fact, 2 of my posts have simply been Bible verses and little else.
I am not saying I have been exactly passive here, because I haven't. But this is the second time you have kinda called me out for being overly aggressive
While I agree with the substance of Magician's post, I think it could be said nicer.
You all know, over this thread, every single person that has a religious slanted bias has been respectful (albeit irritated in Magician's case).
While your posts such as
this one
, and quotes such as this one
What DOES bother me, is the insistence that everyone is being perfectly polite and kosher, while taking an absolute !@#$ on what I believe, while at the same time every word I type is put under a microscope.
seem to have escaped your memory.
While I can appreciate you trying to be a peacemaker here, those 2 jabs seemed to be a bit hypocritical to me, seeing as we both have been less than pacifistic in this this discussion.
Post by
Gone
@Ryja - I think that Jesus speaks pretty "fire and brimstone", and that Hell is a very real thing, though I would have trouble isolating the exact nature of what it is, because of my limited information. Revelation gives a pretty descript account, though much of that is likely proverbial.
I believe Hell is a real thing as well, but I don't pretend to know what it's like. When it comes to religious scripture I trust what the Bible tells me, and I take everything else with a grain of salt. People twist Gods words all the time. I think I've commented before on these forums about my thoughts on the Catholic church using confessionals to bypass the spirit of God wanting us to confess our sins.
All that Revelations says is that Hell is a bottomless pit, that it has a lake of fire, and that people who worship Satan or take the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire. As far as the rest of the geography of Hell goes, and what happens to everyone else sent there, it doesn't say. Remember depending on how you interpret Peter 3:18-20 Christ was there preaching to people after his death.
I'm not saying I think its a pleasant place, I'm just pointing out that most popular images of Hell are inspired for the most part by Dante's fiction, rather than actual words in the Bible.
@Magician & Ryja - It is my suggestion that you temper your responses to Sold with some amount of indifference, bordering on stoic. It would be much more effective to answer emotion with logic. It provides a nice contrast for the rest of the readers
My last post to him was a bit sharp at the end, but no more so than some of yours have been. And if you want to go back and re read it, I was using more logic than emotions. I don't think I've been anything but civil to Sold.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
if there is an afterlife, and someone with a big stick (or worse) passes judgement on you
God didn't come to Earth to condemn it, but to save it. Humanity chose death. God has been working overtime to offer us ways out, up to sacrificing Himself in our place. If we boldly refuse, and demand death, then God isn't going to force life onto us. He's not some curmudgeonly bearded hateful old man sentencing people to burn to death for entertainment value, some cliche authority figure for modern society to buck against, "the man" so to speak.
Post by
gamerunknown
All that Revelations says is that Hell is a bottomless pit, that it has a lake of fire, and that people who worship Satan or take the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire.
I think it also mentions adulterers, liars and atheists in Revelation 21:8. After looking up confession, it appears the scriptural basis is John 20:22-23, with the priest acting as a disciple.
So then what defines morals that transcend social norms, if morals don't come from within?
Well, norms are just that: norms. Most behaviour falls within a few standard deviations of it. Distributions change over time precisely due to people's abnormal behaviour. It's possible for a person to contrast the norms of their society with another and determine which has led to better outcomes and to adjust their behaviour accordingly. Soldrethar's version of moral purity mandates that morals are "not influenced by anyone else", which I hold is impossible.
Post by
Monday
I don't really see any reason that those discussions can't take place though.
Alright, you caught me.
if they believe in a god do they believe that prayer to that god can affect the world in which we live?
Of course it can. Humans have free agency and are free to act as they please. This means that the world is constantly changing and shifting with man's actions. He always loves to hear from His children and wishes to help in any way he can. This can range from healing the sick to softening the heart of another person, allowing them to be more receptive of the Spirit.
Softening one's heart isn't necessarily taking away one's agency, either. Normally, the Spirit stays away from individuals who have done things to drive him away, such as sinning or being too involved in the world to listen. However, sometimes, the Spirit will enter into a person even if they are unworthy to house him, which may make them more receptive to the Spirit at others times and, eventually, to the Word of the Lord.
However, they have every opportunity to refuse, thus retaining their agency.
Though I'm slightly offtopic. As you probably gathered, aye, I believe that He listens to prayer and may answer, if the prayer is in accordance to His will.
And is there a benefit to praying for loved ones who have died?
To be frank, it depends on whether they have already accepted the word before dying. If they have, and have been baptized by immersion and lived a good life, then no. Not really.
However, if they didn't do those things, then yes. We have not yet reached Judgment Day (obviously), and so people still have a chance to change. When someone dies, they are sent to spirit Prison or Paradise, depending on their actions. Those in Paradise journey into the Prison to teach the souls there.
Praying for the dead can help tremendously, as it might change the attitudes of those who have died and allow them to be more willing to listen to the Word of the Lord.
However, prayer itself is secondary to baptism for the dead by proxy. You cannot be saved unless you were baptized, which is why my church puts so much effort into genealogy work. You cannot baptize someone you don't know. The more you do genealogy work, the more people you know and the more people you can baptize.
Whether they accept the baptism is completely up to them, however. They can accept or deny it as they will.
Post by
MyTie
Well, norms are just that: norms. Most behaviour falls within a few standard deviations of it. Distributions change over time precisely due to people's abnormal behaviour. It's possible for a person to contrast the norms of their society with another and determine which has led to
better
outcomes and to adjust their behaviour accordingly. Soldrethar's version of moral purity mandates that morals are "not influenced by anyone else", which I hold is impossible.
I understand all of this, except for your use of "better", which I have emphasized. It appears your understanding of morals is based on subjectivity, on opinion. That's a bit dangerous, isn't it?However, if they didn't do those things, then yes. We have not yet reached Judgment Day (obviously), and so people still have a chance to change. When someone dies, they are sent to spirit Prison or Paradise, depending on their actions. Those in Paradise journey into the Prison to teach the souls there.
What is the Biblical basis for this? Luke 16, Psalm 146:4, Heb 9:27, all seem to indicate otherwise, and those are off the top of my head. Can you point to a part of the Bible that discusses changing your life after you are dead?
Post by
PTsICU
I'd like to ask a few questions for the religious folk in this thread. How do you know what you have been taught, reared to believe, read, etc, is actually true? How do you come to the conclusion your belief is the correct one compared to differing religions? And finally, do you use the same lack of evidentiary thinking in other areas of your life? When I say evidence, I am implying something you can show as proof to someone else, not your personal experiences or feelings/faith.
Interested in reading the responses, thanks.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
And finally, do you use the same lack of evidentiary thinking in other areas of your life?
That's a bit of a leading question, isn't it? Keep it civil here, guys.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
What is the Biblical basis for this? Luke 16, Psalm 146:4, Heb 9:27, all seem to indicate otherwise, and those are off the top of my head. Can you point to a part of the Bible that discusses changing your life after you are dead?
Doctrine and Covenants 138: 57 - 60
57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
He killed all the egyptian firstborn for.......no discernible reason.
Um... have you ever actually read the story of Exodus? If you had, you would know that Moses tried a LOT of different ways to get the Pharaoh to let the enslaved Hebrews go. None of them worked. That was the ONLY way to get the Pharaoh to see reason.
destroying freaking soul?
Where do you get this from?
Post by
Skreeran
Um... have you ever actually read the story of Exodus? If you had, you would know that Moses tried a LOT of different ways to get the Pharaoh to let the enslaved Hebrews go. None of them worked. That was the ONLY way to get the Pharaoh to see reason.
http://bible.cc/exodus/4-21.htm
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Post by
Monday
Um... have you ever actually read the story of Exodus? If you had, you would know that Moses tried a LOT of different ways to get the Pharaoh to let the enslaved Hebrews go. None of them worked. That was the ONLY way to get the Pharaoh to see reason.
http://bible.cc/exodus/4-21.htm
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Sorry, doesn't work on me.
JST Ex. 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand:
and I will prosper thee
; but
Pharaoh
will harden his heart,
and
he
will
not let the people go.
Post by
MyTie
And finally, do you use the same lack of evidentiary thinking in other areas of your life? When I say evidence, I am implying something you can show as proof to someone else, not your personal experiences or feelings/faith.You want evidence of something that someone has faith in? That's a bit contradictory. Why not ask for evidence of something there is no evidence for?
I like to point to Pythagorean theorem when I hear this demand for proof. It's a theorem because ultimate proof hasn't been tested on every single right angle. So, it isn't a law. Sure, it's a given that it is true, and it is impossible to test every single triangle, because that would take literally forever. But, we believe it to be true because the situations that it is applicable to are overwhelmingly in favor of the theorum. Plus, it makes sense. That's how I see the existence of God. To every situation that it applies, it makes sense. The arguments against it I've heard are not really applicable, similar to arguing against Pythagorean theorem by using a scalene triangle. If you want to bring up specific instances, I'm willing to discuss them with you.I'd like to ask a few questions for the religious folk in this thread. How do you know what you have been taught, reared to believe, read, etc, is actually true? How do you come to the conclusion your belief is the correct one compared to differing religions?
I'm going to make the response to this my profile on wowhead, so I can stop answering it, and just link to my profile. It's a valid question. It's just that I've answered it dozens of times, and the answer is long.
Screw that. I'm going to summarize.
The reason I believe in a creator, is because love resembles art. Art requires a creator. The reason I've arrived at Christianity is because, based on my understanding of a God that wants to be loved, is that love would require communication from God. Based on the need for communication, that would have had to have been effective, and there from the beginning. That eliminates new religions. The Bible and the Koran are left. The Bible reflects the teachings of a God that wants to be loved (greatest commandment). Further study of the Bible has led me to the understanding I have.
It just seemed the logical conclusion.Doctrine and Covenants 138: 57 - 60
Oh yeah. You are Mormon. I'm still waiting to have that discussion with you, the one where I ask you tough questions about Mormonism.
Post by
PTsICU
And finally, do you use the same lack of evidentiary thinking in other areas of your life?
That's a bit of a leading question, isn't it? Keep it civil here, guys.
I thought I was keeping it civil. I guess people have become so sensitive that supposed "leading" questions are viewed with animosity.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm not familiar with the JST. It does seem to be a redundant theme, though:
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Here, the operative subject and predicate are קשה
qashah
in the
hiphil
(causative) sense, translated to "and I will harden."
Source.
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Here, יהוה
Yĕhovah
"The Lord" חזק
chazaq
"hardened." Chazaq is in the
piel
tense (past tense expressing intentional or intensive action), meaning that it was a deliberate action carried out by the subject, God.
Source.
Post by
MyTie
I thought I was keeping it civil. I guess people have become so sensitive that supposed "leading" questions are viewed with animosity.
It's not that it is a leading question, but that it is a loaded question. Sort of like "Why is it that you smell like crap?".
No one likes loaded questions.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.