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Do you believe in God?
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Post by
Skreeran
And I guess we'll continue to disagree, because I think something you can't change, like race or sexuality, is different than an ideology you can, like religion or political alignment.
Post by
Gone
And I guess we'll continue to disagree, because I think something you can't change, like race or sexuality, is different than an ideology you can, like religion or political alignment.
But you have to look at it from the religious persons point of view. To somebody who truly believes in their faith, it's not something that can be changed any more than you can try to change your own mind about the sky being blue. To them it's not a belief, it's just reality. And I say this about any person of any faith, not just my own.
Post by
Patty
/facepalm
You're right, and the key word in your post is "should", i.e. in an ideal world, where all those things are regarded on an equal level by society. Which they're not. Which has been my point throughout. I even mentioned religious minorities in one of my previous posts. Someone insulting the Christian faith in the western world is in no way comparable to that of the continued degradation and dehumanisation of said minorities by society at large on a legal, economic and social level, as Christians are in no way subjected to that in anywhere near an equivalent way or scale, indeed they are usually afforded
privilege
in such circumstances.
Right, time to leave the thread because I seem to have reached the same impasse of lack of understanding and misinterpretations of my point that I've already explained and reinforced multiple times, as in the racism thread.
Also like I said in the racism thread, do your research on things like sexism, racism, homophobia and other -isms/forms of oppression before trying to construct an argument about it. Common sense, really, and your lack of knowledge shows in your posts and the misunderstandings of what I have discussed.
Au revoir.
Post by
Gone
/facepalm
You're right, and the key word in your post is "should", i.e. in an ideal world, where all those things are regarded on an equal level by society. Which they're not. Which has been my point throughout. I even mentioned religious minorities in one of my previous posts. Someone insulting the Christian faith in the western world is in no way comparable to that of the continued degradation and dehumanisation of said minorities by society at large on a legal, economic and social level, as Christians are in no way subjected to that in anywhere near an equivalent way or scale, indeed they are usually afforded
privilege
in such circumstances.
Right, time to leave the thread because I seem to have reached the same impasse of lack of understanding and misinterpretations of my point that I've already explained and reinforced multiple times, as in the racism thread.
Also like I said in the racism thread, do your research on things like sexism, racism, homophobia and other -isms/forms of oppression before trying to construct an argument about it. Common sense, really, and your lack of knowledge shows in your posts and the misunderstandings of what I have discussed.
Au revoir.
So are you just gonna keep repeating yourself all night? For the final time, I know that these things are not treated the same by society, but that in no way prevents us from offering a majority the same protection as a minority, especially since incidents like these are addressed on a case by case basis. I don't know what you think prevents us from showing 0 tolerance to anti religious sentiment and anti gay sentiment.
And dude, don't tell me to do my research, it makes you come off like a condescending jerk, and no offense, your posts haven't been well versed enough to back up that attitude. I have more than enough experience on the subject. Just like when you said it in that racism thread, you some like some college freshman who just took his first cultural diversity class and thinks he's tapped into some vast well of knowledge that nobody else is aware of. You just keep saying the same thing over and over and ignoring my response to it. All of your points have come down to "Christianity is the majority, Christianity is oppressive, blah blah blah."
It doesn't matter what the majority is, everything should be afforded the same level of protection.
Post by
Adamsm
And I guess we'll continue to disagree, because I think something you can't change, like race or sexuality, is different than an ideology you can, like religion or political alignment.
But you have to look at it from the religious persons point of view. To somebody who truly believes in their faith, it's not something that can be changed any more than you can try to change your own mind about the sky being blue. To them it's not a belief, it's just reality. And I say this about any person of any faith, not just my own.
Thing is Ryja, lots of people have their faith shaken, in both politics and religion: Those who are shook to the core abandon their beliefs too don't forget....You can't really do that if you are gay or the 'wrong' colour.
Post by
Gone
And I guess we'll continue to disagree, because I think something you can't change, like race or sexuality, is different than an ideology you can, like religion or political alignment.
But you have to look at it from the religious persons point of view. To somebody who truly believes in their faith, it's not something that can be changed any more than you can try to change your own mind about the sky being blue. To them it's not a belief, it's just reality. And I say this about any person of any faith, not just my own.
Thing is Ryja, lots of people have their faith shaken, in both politics and religion: Those who are shook to the core abandon their beliefs too don't forget....You can't really do that if you are gay or the 'wrong' colour.
Are you kidding me? People change their sexuality all the time. I know people who have lived their entire lives as straight until they meet the right person and their sexuality is, as you put it, "shaken." Despite this it is widely accepted that a persons sexuality is either something their born with, or something hardwired into them at a young age, with the majority leaning toward the former. In other words, it's not something a person can be expected to control.
Post by
Adamsm
Are you kidding me? People change their sexuality all the time. I know people who have lived their entire lives as straight until they meet the right person and their sexuality is, as you put it, "shaken." Despite this it is widely accepted that a persons sexuality is either something their born with, or something hardwired into them at a young age, with the majority leaning toward the former. In other words, it's not something a person can be expected to control.
Thing is Ryja, that's not the same: Someone can live straight as an arrow all they want, but if at their core they are Bi or Gay, there isn't much they can do to change that.
Even then, it's still 'easier' to change a Faith then it is to change who you are attracted to.
Post by
Gone
Are you kidding me? People change their sexuality all the time. I know people who have lived their entire lives as straight until they meet the right person and their sexuality is, as you put it, "shaken." Despite this it is widely accepted that a persons sexuality is either something their born with, or something hardwired into them at a young age, with the majority leaning toward the former. In other words, it's not something a person can be expected to control.
Thing is Ryja, that's not the same: Someone can live straight as an arrow all they want, but if at their core they are Bi or Gay, there isn't much they can do to change that.
Even then, it's still 'easier' to change a Faith then it is to change who you are attracted to.
I disagree, I think it depends on the person. Weren't you the one who said a while back that if you were offered absolute proof that your religion couldn't be true, that it wouldn't change your mind about your faith?
Religion may not be something a person is born with, but to that person it can still be an absolute truth that transcends everything else.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Are you kidding me? People change their sexuality all the time.
Really? Are you sure about that?
Yes. I know what you're getting at, that if they change it was never really their real sexuality to begin with. But I have personally known people who have truly believed themselves to be a certain way, and been attracted to members of a certain sex, until the right person came along and changed that.
Post by
Adamsm
But it's still possible for them to 'give' it up as it were; you can't do the same with sexuality or race.
Post by
Gone
But it's still possible for them to 'give' it up as it were; you can't do the same with sexuality or race.
Not by choice though. Outside sources can cause somebody to change their faith, but you can't truly force yourself to believe one thing or another.
Post by
Adamsm
But it's still possible for them to 'give' it up as it were; you can't do the same with sexuality or race.
Not by choice though. Outside sources can cause somebody to change their faith, but you can't truly force yourself to believe one thing or another.
If you say so; however, I've seen a lot of people make the choice to leave the religion they were raised with so...
Post by
Gone
I've seen a lot of people make the choice to leave the religion
they were raised with
so...
Couldn't you say the same thing about a gay man who comes out of the closet after being raised his whole life to be hetero?
Anyway I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread for the night and work on some hw.
Post by
Adamsm
Difference is the homosexual has no choice in the matter, compared to the person who choose a religious faith. Sure they can try to stay in the closet, but that would be denying who they at their core.
Post by
Magician22773
I have seen straight people go gay.
I have seen gay people go straight.
And then you bi-sexuals, who I guess can just decide on whatever sexuality they want to be at any given time.
I do not disagree that "some" gays may have been born that way. There is at least enough "evidence" out there to warrant it to be plausible. I do not 100% agree either, as there is just as much "evidence" out there that contradicts the former opinion.
I do believe that at the very least, not
all
gays have no choice in the matter.
I just as much believe that no one that "truly" has faith in God can be shaken from Him. I know I could not be. I have never really understood people that claim to have lost their faith. Once you have it, nothing can take it away.
My dad getting killed was quite simply the second worst possible thing I could ever imagine happening to me in the world (second only to losing my wife or one of my children), and that tragedy only strengthened my faith.
And Soldrethar....I personally don't think you would have the testicular fortitude to even tell
me
to my face to "eff off", let alone God. But that is just my
opinion
.
God doesn't offer an
opinion
on the matter, He makes a pretty clear statement:
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
You
will
get your chance to meet God, and you
will
bow. And more than that, you
will
praise Him.
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Post by
Skreeran
You will get your chance to meet God, and you will bow. And more than that, you will praise Him.I. Do not. Believe you.
Post by
Gone
I have seen straight people go gay.
I have seen gay people go straight.
And then you bi-sexuals, who I guess can just decide on whatever sexuality they want to be at any given time.
I do not disagree that "some" gays may have been born that way. There is at least enough "evidence" out there to warrant it to be plausible. I do not 100% agree either, as there is just as much "evidence" out there that contradicts the former opinion.
I do believe that at the very least, not
all
gays have no choice in the matter.
I just as much believe that no one that "truly" has faith in God can be shaken from Him. I know I could not be. I have never really understood people that claim to have lost their faith. Once you have it, nothing can take it away.
My dad getting killed was quite simply the second worst possible thing I could ever imagine happening to me in the world (second only to losing my wife or one of my children), and that tragedy only strengthened my faith.
And Soldrethar....I personally don't think you would have the testicular fortitude to even tell
me
to my face to "eff off", let alone God. But that is just my
opinion
.
God doesn't offer an
opinion
on the matter, He makes a pretty clear statement:
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
You
will
get your chance to meet God, and you
will
bow. And more than that, you
will
praise Him.
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Well put. Anybody who says they would tell God to "eff off" is dissociating themselves from the situation. If God were actually in front of you, and there was no doubt it was really him, not only would it be very unlikely anybody would have the, as you put it "testicular fortitude" to deny him, it would be an extremely stupid thing to do, and would be to ones own detriment.
Post by
Skreeran
I'd like to think that I'd stick to my moral beliefs, and not just accept God's actions because he's a god. Even if I was tortured into changing my beliefs, I just can't imagine myself just letting him off the hook for what seem like evil things that he's done.
Assuming Christian god, and not Mark Twain's deist god.
Post by
PTsICU
I just as much believe that no one that "truly" has faith in God can be shaken from Him. I know I could not be. I have never really understood people that claim to have lost their faith. Once you have it, nothing can take it away.
http://www.clergyproject.org/
And a lot of non-believers were once followers of some sort of religion. I was reared a southern baptist, and was baptized as a child and again at 18. Whether you acknowledge that or not, is of no consequence. You are free to do like most other "believers" and simply state I wasn't REALLY a Xtian if it makes you feel better.
You
will
get your chance to meet God, and you
will
bow. And more than that, you
will
praise Him.
Which God?
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