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Could You Forgive Arthas?
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Post by
Berronaxwins
Having played WC3 i allways felt sorry for arthas, he just wanted to defend his home and protect his people, and then that blade frostmourne corrupted his soul..
I also recently watched this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vAKtkJGufM
very nice video, and in that video he is forgiven by some.
But could you forgive him?
i personaly forgive him from my pov as a player, he only did what he thought was best to save his homeland and his people, however if i lived in this game and saw all the horrors he did, had a family member die at his hands.. i'm not sure i could.
Could you?
Post by
Adamsm
Nope; he was whiny, pathetic little baby with an inferiority complex, daddy issues, and scared of commitment.
Which is why that whole stupid thing about 'the last piece of good held off the Lich King' was such a crock in Wrath.
Post by
Rankkor
Nope. The guy was an arrogant, selfish brat. One could MAYBE (and this is a very stretchy maybe) forgive him for Stratholm as its people were going to die anyways (IMO he could had quarantined the whole city mobilize the full might of the silver hand to repel mal'ganis, and then try and see if there were anyone non-infected that could be saved. When there is an outbreak of a highly contagious virus you don't see the CDC just purging the entire city and anyone in it)
But everything he did in northrend was unforgivable (he lied to his men, betrayed the mercenaries that fought for him, led his people to their deaths, caused the demise of his old friend and mentor, and more) just to satisfy his own inner pleasure. He put his own needs ahead of the needs of his men. That's one of the most unforgivable crimes an officer could make.
Post by
355559
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Post by
588688
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Post by
Skreeran
Neeope. I started hating him ever since he would never find out if there was a special place in hell for him, because he "didn't plan to die."
Post by
Lordplatypus
Yes.
He fought for a good cause, and unlike people such as Kael and Illidan, he actually has mitigating factors in his storyline. The Culling was an act of mercy on soon-undead forces if the reaction of slyvannas and some other forsaken are anything to base it on. The battles in Northerend were further the same.
As sun tzu said "Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face death, there is nothing they may not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth their uttermost strength.’ Close the exits and put your back against the wall.
He was doing what he should have until the momment he reached frostmourne, be it desperation or simply not understanding what the curse would do, he took it.
Whether you take Arthas or seriously or not, apparently he still had his soul even as a deathknight. He was totally aware of his actions, even as he killed Uther. There was no mind control there. That's when it becomes totally unforgivable.
His mind was still there, but the first thing he says is how he feels no remorse, no regret.
His soul was taken, his mind was somehow intact.
Post by
Adamsm
Arthas:
Inferiority complex: Thought he was weaker then Varian, since his father favoured the Prince of Stormwind. Also he thought he was meant to be a greater king then his father, which is why he killed him.
Daddy Complex: See the above.
Afraid of any type of commitment: #$%^ed and dumped Jaina.
Power mad: The fact that he fell for the Scourge/Dreadlord trick shows that.
Always having to be right: The lead up to the Culling of Stratholme, where he thought he could disband the Silver Hand..and then in Northrend where he hired the mercs to burn the ships then blamed them for it.
He doesn't deserve forgiveness, he deserves to burn in the Eternal Pit for the rest of his miserable existence.
Post by
Rankkor
His mind was still there
, but the first thing he says is how he feels no remorse, no regret.
His soul was taken,
his mind was somehow intact
.
Notice that you said it. not me.
This is why what he did is unforgivable. His soul was claimed, BIG FRIKKING DEAL, he still committed monstrous actions, without anyone pulling his strings, he was himself, and he did what he did willingly, and with malice, and with a completely clear mind. No master puppeteer like with garona, nobody pulling the strings like with Saurfang Jr, he was still himself and he CHOSE to do evil without remorse or regret.
For perspective, the playable death knights also get their souls taken, and at first they also do horrible things, but they are being controlled by the lich king, once this control is dissipated due to the lich king being wounded by the light of dawn, these death knights, though still soulless, cursed, beings that feel ZERO emotions such as regret or joy, or pain, they CHOSE to do the right thing.
Arthas? having his soul removed he CHOSE to murder his father, purge his kingdom, and butcher every man woman and child because he no longer gave a flying f***
Post by
Monday
As sun tzu said
To counter with another Sun Tzu quote:
IF FIGHTING IS SURE TO RESULT IN VICTORY, THEN YOU MUST FIGHT!
Or maybe I'm thinking of the Soldier...
Post by
Lordplatypus
Rankor, you just don't like him because he killed blood elves.
Heck, that was one of my favorite parts of the undead campaign.
never gets old.
Arthas had his soul taken, the player death knights didn't.
Frostmourne was the difference. Frostmourne took his soul, without it, he was a husk of a man.
The playable death knights were released and had a reason for revenge, they had time to change, they didn't hear a voice in their head.
Too bad we lost a well fleshed out character for a half-emo fanservice elf with a personality cult.
Post by
Adamsm
Frostmourne may have taken the soul....but Arthas choose to make the decisions he did. Though, since he didn't have the Sword when he betrayed the Mercs well....
Edit: Arthas wasn't a hero; he was a pathetic cry baby who was just a step or two above the Emo-King Illidan.
Post by
Monday
they had time to change, they didn't hear a voice in their head.
Wuh... have you played the DK starter zone? You hear his voice in your head throughout the whole zone.
Post by
Lordplatypus
I know, they didn't hear it while all along and stumbling around in northerend.
Arthas wasn't a hero; he was a pathetic cry baby who was just a step or two above the Emo-King Illidan.
At least it beats &*!@#-Queen Slyvannas or Tardchief Hellscream.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Or maybe I'm thinking of the Soldier...
Who knows? MAGGOT!
Post by
Monday
Or maybe I'm thinking of the Soldier...
Who knows? MAGGOT!
THIS ISN'T CAMPING SON. THIS IS WAR,
AND I LOVE IT!
Post by
Rankkor
Rankor, you just don't like him because he killed blood elves.
Heck, that was one of my favorite parts of the undead campaign.
never gets old.
Right. Because murdering every man woman and child in lordaeron had nothing to do with it, then repeating the same in dalaran had nothing to do with it, and screwing over his men for petty revenge in norhtrend had nothing to do with it.
/end-sarcasm.
And when arthas invaded Silvermoon they weren't blood elves, they were high elves
you're telling me you got a sick pleasure of killing off your own alliance members? No wonder your side is all screwed up.
And don't get started with that old "the elves betrayed the alliance" crap because ALL of the nations in the alliance bickered against one another after the second war was over. The King of Kul Tiras and the King of Gilneas came this close to a fist fight in the halls of Terenas during a meeting of the 7 nations, and everyone was basically trying to outweasel everyone else.
At least the elves helped the alliance in fighting the scourge and the legion in the third war. What did Gilneas do? built a giant wall and let their allies who gave their lives to protect THEIR BORDERS die like animals.
However you for some reason you don't seem to hold such an unreasonable grudge against them as you do with the elves (even when Gilneas really did screwed over the alliance far worse) even as their leader so graciously said "Damn the orcs, Damn the alliance, and Damn you Therenas" before he stormed out in a hissy fit. Now I have to wonder why that is...........
Arthas had his soul taken, the player death knights didn't.
uhuh, and Teldrassil is stuffed with gummi bears.
Unless you can back up your claims, they're just that, claims. Quests prove that playable DKs had their souls taken, and that even after gaining their free will again, they're still incapable of feeling emotions of any kind because their souls were not restored. They had their souls taken AND their free will taken. The few who still had some sort of free will were killed immediately upon being resurrected (and this can be seen on the DK starting zone)
Frostmourne was the difference. Frostmourne took his soul, without it, he was a husk of a man.
Again, took his soul, but didn't took his free will, everything he did from the moment he picked up that blade was out of his own willing choice. Absolutely nothing was done due to someone else controlling him.
The playable death knights were released and had a reason for revenge, they had time to change,
they didn't hear a voice in their head.
Yeahhhhhnnnoooooo. Nope, you're wrong. So very very
wrong.
(every civilian killed on this quest is preceded by the lich king whispering you to do it, to kill them all)
Too bad we lost a well fleshed out character for a half-emo fanservice elf with a personality cult.
who are you talking about? Kael? how exactly did we "lost arthas for kael"? neither got any prominent focus, and as far as Kael goes, his characterization was thrown out the window and he was made a pathetic bootlicker, while arthas went from the badass villain he was in War3 to a saturday-morning cartoon villain in WOTLK.
I'd say neither came out of that one looking good.
I know, they didn't hear it while all along and stumbling around in northerend.
maybe because DKs go to northrend AFTER getting freed of the mind control? They were controlled while under the scarlet enclave.
At least it beats &*!@#-Queen Slyvannas or Tardchief Hellscream.
Why are you bringing them into this? this is about whether or not you'd forgive arthas for all the monstrous actions he committed (including butchering his own people as well as the people of 2 other kingdoms) but no, you HAD to drag along everyone in the horde you don't like. Sheesh.
Post by
H3Knuckles
Too bad we lost a well fleshed out character for a half-emo fanservice elf with a personality cult.
who are you talking about? Kael? how exactly did we "lost arthas for kael"?
I'm not supporting him or anything, but I thought it was fairly obvious he's talking about Illidan "Shirt? What shirt?" Stormrage and his Illidari here.
Or more likely Sylvanas, now that I think of it.
Post by
Behelich
Whether or not we can forgive Arthas depends on one complicated issue - the consistency of Blizzard's writing.
In the end of the Rise of the Lich King, Arthas consciously and willingly discards the last vestiges of his humanity, by virtue of stabbing a projection of himself as a boy. However, in the end of the Fall of the Lich King, we are told in no uncertain terms that there still is a sliver of good inside him - and that this sliver of good is the only thing that kept the Scourge from annihilating the living all across the world and establishing the unending dominion of death.
Here's where it gets interesting - SPOILERS for those who had not yet played Warcraft 3 and its expansion but still want to (looking at you, Neonhyper >.<).
Just after getting his hands on Frostmourne, Arthas seems to have lost the capacity for positive emotions. He explicitly tells Tichondrius that he cannot feel shame, regret or sorrow. It is almost as if his ability to choose good over evil was removed from him.
Skip ahead to the events after Mt. Hyjal - all of a sudden, Arthas seems to have regained some compassion. As a self-crowned King of Lordaeron, he seems to think of his undead warriors as his new subjects that he actually has to look after - for example, when fleeing soon-to-be-Undercity and gathering the surviving (in a broad sense of the word) loyalists, he sprouts lines like "I cannot leave my loyal subjects to be killed by this rabble!"
He is greatly distressed by what looks to him like Sylvanas's betrayal (okay, at this point he is a little delusional, thinking that she had left her life behind and became a comrade of his in the ranks of the Scourge, but still), and is both genuinely glad to meet Kel'Thuzad again and sad about leaving him to care for his homeland - he addresses the lich as a friend.
Later in Northrend, he is showing signs of camaraderie with Anub'arak, and when it seems like the King of Nerub has been killed in a cave-in, Arthas is mourning briefly, and rejoices greatly when Anub'arak survives. Also his attitude to his soldiers is shown again when he rescues Anub'arak's crypt fiends from the tentacles of the Faceless Ones.
Now, you may say that this was all a game of pretend, to which I will ask - why, exactly, would Arthas, who was exactly one step below the absolute tyrant, the God with a capital 'G' of all Scourge, would need to feign compassion towards his fellow undead? As far as they know - those that have some consciousness, at least - he is their messiah, chosen by their supreme lord and master to lead them to glory. The answer is, he did not feign it. His soul was taken in by Frostmourne, yes - but the blade remained at his side forever. It is even stated in Rise of the Lich King (though I do loathe to use this book as a source due to its portrayal of Arthas) that at the end, Frostmourne was more than just a weapon - it became a part of Arthas just as Arthas became a part of it. It could very well be that he managed to come in contact with the vestiges of his soul trapped within the blade. And thus, after his humanity was taken from him, bit by bit he reclaims it all the way until the merge with Ner'Zhul.
END WC3 SPOILERS.
I am not going to defend Arthas's actions between the Culling of Stratholme and the duel against Mal'Ganis in the frozen wastes of Northrend, but I feel the need to explain how was he pushed to it, and how it was not only his fault - though make no mistake, he is still to blame.
Arthas, the crown prince of Lordaeron, cared greatly for his people. After witnessing first at Hearthglen his loyal subjects turned into mindless, monstrous automatons that turned on their own nearest and dearest, something snapped in the heir apparent. As he held off the hordes of undead in the siege of Hearthglen, waiting desperately for Uther to arrive, his mind was struggling to take in the enormity of the catastrophe that has fallen upon his land. Uther had to pull him out of the figurative fire, yes - but the older paladin was not there from the beginning. He did not see how a small, under-provisioned garrison stood their ground against vast, innumerable swarms of monsters - his contingent of Lordaeron's finest just swooped in and saved the day. And then Uther had the nerve to berate Arthas, without first looking into the situation as a whole.
Later on in Stratholme, Arthas's actions were completely justified. The poor citizens, like someone has already pointed out, were not simply turned into zombies and left to shamble across the Crusader's Square - they were taken away to form another battalion of the Scourge, to slay more good people of Lordaeron. A quarantine was not an option there, and no matter how horrible it sounds, there was no other choice but to purge the city.
Now, what does the great and mighty and wise Uther Lightbringer do? He is too squeamish to do what has to be done, he is too set in his beliefs - and when Arthas snaps and in a fit or rage relieves Uther from command (which was, while a wrong thing to do, understandable if you take in how Arthas must have felt at the moment), instead of displaying some wisdom, instead of at least trying to give Arthas a goddamn hug and talk the situation out like grown-ups do, Uther turns his tail and runs to Terenas to complain, taking with him a part of the army - note how he still has not even tried to learn how does the Plague work. Though Jaina leaves as well, at least her unwillingness to purge the city can be excused by her being too young and innocent to understand why it has to be done. Uther has no such excuse.
Where does it leave Arthas? The people he has responsibilities for are turned into zombies. His mentor has just out and left him to deal with it all alone. At this point, Arthas loses the remnants of his sanity, and the clusterf!ck that is the Fall of Lordaeron comes to its conclusion. Yes, you may say that he was too weak to deal with the responsibility - and I'll say to you there is no way in hell he could have been properly prepared to face the Scourge.
So can we forgive him? If we take the games as our canon, if we assume for truth that at first he was completely and utterly broken, and from that point slowly and painfully regained some semblance of humanity, if we accept the ending of Wrath of the Lich King stating that it was the good remaining in him and it alone that held the Scourge at bay, then the answer is yes.
However, if that stupid book takes precedence, if Arthas truly has, after for a brief moment reclaiming the good in him discarded it as a conscious choice and felt no remorse, then sadly, there is no redemption for the Fallen Prince of Lordaeron.
Post by
Rankkor
That's a well worded and well illustrated point you made Ur, but the reason why I can't forgive him is because through and through he Murdered tons of people across the land. Unlike..... say, Garona who was mind-controlled by Gul'dan when she killed Llane, and who wept bitterly as she was forced against her will to kill one of her best friends, Arthas was in full control of his actions.
There was nobody pulling his strings, what he did, he did with full awareness and individuality from his master. He could had rebelled (though it would had obviously meant his end) but chose not to, instead murdering his entire kingdom, and his neighboring kingdoms, while in full control of his actions.
While an argument can be made (as you just did) that he was pretty much insane at this point, insanity is not an excuse for wrongdoings. If that was the case, we should also forgive benedictus for casting his lot with the twilight hammer.
The same can be said about the orcs during the war1 and war2 era, specially Grom Hellscream. Grom was driven insane by the demon blood in his veins, and he committed HORRIBLE monstrosities upon his enemies (particularly the draenei). At his core he was a good man, he wanted what was best for his clan, and what was best for his people, and at first his actions were purely out of genuine belief that the draenei were plotting against them (remember, they were being tricked by the legion). He also (as seen in Lord of the Clans) hated having to kill children, having done so in the Draenei Wars, he refused to repeat it against the humans.
Should this mean we should forgive him? No. He may have redeemed himself at the end, by slaying mannoroth at the cost of his life, and during his moments of lucidity he may have been repentant of his actions, but they were still HIS actions. Nobody was pulling his strings. He chose to drink mannoroth's blood (not once but twice) he chose to wage war against his enemies and butcher them, man woman and child, combatant and non-combatant alike.
At the very least he owned up to his mistakes, and paid for them. Did arthas? nope. Either way, neither man can be forgiven for their actions.
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