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Alliance Blood Elves?
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Post by
Adamsm
Not really; nothing justifies killing non-combatants.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Not really; nothing justifies killing non-combatants.
If it saves more innocent lives than it takes, then I personally think it does.
Nothing, no matter how many lives it's supposedly saves, is worth taking the life of someone who has nothing at all to do with the conflict.
Post by
Rankkor
Not really; nothing justifies killing non-combatants.
If it saves more innocent lives than it takes, then I personally think it does.
Nope. Not even then.
And even if that was true (and it was not) in this particular context, no innocent lives were saved by the sacrifice of these other innocents. All that was acomplished was pointless bloodshed.
Also I'm surprised you suddenly think its ok to kill innocents if the result is to save more lives than you took. Because if that was true (and its not) then the forsaken would be morally correct in killing humans and raise them as unded to safeguard their lives (however, they're not justified, their killings are still wrong)
Innocents are innocents, doesn't matter if they're alliance or horde, killing them is ethically and morally wrong. I don't buy that BS of "Collateral Damage". Anyone who says that, should try and sacrifice someone close to them and see if they can still hold that hardass position.
If it saved 1000000 lives from a different country, would you willingly sacrifice 100000 children of your own country, your own children included? what would even give you the right to decide who lives and who dies? Absolutely nothing, not war, not ANYTHING will ever justify going after civilians. Wars are already bad as it is, soldiers will die, by the thousands, we don't need to also sully the lives of the people who do not want to be a part of the conflict.
Post by
Lordplatypus
How were the sunreavers non-combatants?
All i saw were murderous thugs in the sewers and a full-blown rebellion in "their" quarter of Dalaran.
Oh and rankor? About that? What about the civilians in theramoore when the blood elves orcs and goblins conspired to use a Weapon of Mass Destruction?
Use it on what could be the last survivors of the plague from lordaeron?
Post by
Behelich
How were the sunreavers non-combatants?
All i saw were murderous thugs in the sewers and a full-blown rebellion in "their" quarter of Dalaran.
Dalaran is a
city
, not a military compound. A city implies civilian population. Do you seriously think that there was not a single Blood Elf in Dalaran who was not a soldier?
On account of killing innocents, unfortunately Azeroth is a world with supernatural, and our laws do not really imply there.
Case in point, the Culling of Stratholme. The infectees
were
going to turn into soldiers of the Scourge. There is
no
cure for Plague of Undeath, as Bridenbrad can attest.
Arthas chose the lesser evil, and it was not the choice itself that was his Moral Event Horizon, but rather his attitude - that he did not at least try to do something else, that he chased Uther away (though the old man really had it coming - I mean, for a freaking High Lord of the Silver Hand he could and should have seen Arthas needs a talking to rather than a pissing contest), etc.
The point I'm trying to make is that, unfortunately, in a world where things like Old God mind control and the Plague of Undeath exists, sometimes killing people whose only crime is being in the wrong place at the wrong time is the only way.
Edit: That said, none of the above applies to what Jaina did.
Post by
Rankkor
How were the sunreavers non-combatants?
All i saw were murderous thugs in the sewers and a full-blown rebellion in "their" quarter of Dalaran.
As Ur already said, Dalaran is not a military fortress, its a CITY, where families live. Where there's families there's civilians. Also, because you really suffer from selective obliviousness (As in: you only see what you want to see and conveniently ignore everything else) here's this:
Here you are asked to kill shopkeepers
and
here you are asked to kill a guy just for trying to withdraw HIS MONEY from the bank
. During the entire quest, there's also aplenty of
scared, confused, and helpless civilians
being attacked by the silver covenant, and by stormwind troops (the troops only show up on the horde version, which canonically takes place AFTER the alliance version.)
Also whereas you saw "thugs" in the sewers, I saw
these poor souls being brutally beaten by silver covenant REAL THUGS.
What drives this deeper in, is that these aren't even armed, the silver covenant just beats the crap out of them and the civilians don't even fight back, you have to rescue them on
this
quest.
Also Full-blown rebellion in their quarter my ass. YOU tell me how you would react if 20 years ago, you were arrested by a crime you did not committed, were sent to death row, you managed to escape, and then 20 years later, they AGAIN try to arrest you for something you didnt do.
The right to fight back is not a rebellion. IF anyone rebelled it was jaina when she took an unilateral decision without consulting with the council of six. Effectively becoming a dictator in the one city in azeroth that had a democratic government. Dalaran has no queen, no empress, jaina had no authority to pull off what she did. And neither did Vereesa.
Try to stop pretending the alliance is all white and shiny, cuz we all know they're not. What happened in dalaran was pure hate crime, mixed with genocide, dictatorship, and abuse of power, in the likes of which we've never seen before.
Oh and rankor? About that? What about the civilians in theramoore when the blood elves orcs and goblins conspired to use a Weapon of Mass Destruction?
Ok, three things.
A: the mana bomb on theramoore was not done by a conspiracy of blood elves orcs and goblins. If you actually bothered to read the damned book, you'd know that NOBODY knew about the mana bomb. It was a secret project of Garrosh, developed in secret by a select cadre of his personal hand-picked orcs and goblins. And delivered into Theramoore by ONE (lemme repeat that O.N.E) blood elf acting as a double-agent.
its stupid and ridiculous and preposterous to try to pin AN ENTIRE RACE by the actions of one. Also, if you read the book you'd also know that every single horde leader disapproved HEAVILY on the attack on theramoore, EVERY.SINGLE.ONE.OF.THEM. They only obeyed because garrosh threatened to kill them if they did not. clear? ok next point:
B: Even if for some bizzare reason the SILVERMOON elves were responsible for theramoore, WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE NAARU HAVE THE SUNREAVERS TO DO WITH THAT? To punish a group of blood elves for the actions of ANOTHER group of blood elves would be as ridiculous as trying to arrest stormwind humans, for the actions of the scarlet crusade humans. It would be as stupid as trying to kill draenei for the actions of the Auchindoun Death Priest Draenei.
The Sunreavers had nothing to do with either theramoore, nor the theft of the Divine Bell, yet Jaina chose to attack them because she was angry, bitter, and with a chip on her shoulder and needed to vent her rage on the first scapegoat she could find. How the hell can you justify that? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?
and C: Theramoore barely lost any civilians, because in case you forgot, Baine warned them of the attack LONG before it began, giving them ample time to evacuate the city. Pretty much all the forces that died in Theramoore were military targets.
Ya know, a horde leader had to deal with the same situation as Jaina. This leader was Baine. He too was betrayed by someone he trusted. For a long time (long before cata) the Grimtotem Clan had been harassing the horde, and even fellow taurens and yet they were still allowed in Thunderbluff, as peace emissaries as an olive branch to try to cease hostilities between the tribes. How did the grimtotems repaid this generosity? by staging a coup, murdering TONS of taurens, almost wiping out an entire village full of civilians (they only failed because one of them refused to commit such barbarism) and placing the whole city under lockdown.
After Baine got his city back and held the traitors by the neck how did he responded? KILL EVERY GRIMTOTEM DOWN TO THE LAST MAN WOMAN AND CHILD? Nope, he exiled them, and banished them from Tauren Land. He would not sully his hands with the blood of an unarmed and defeated enemy, nor would he raise his weapons against civilians (because hard as it may be to believe, even the grimtotem have non-combatants).
THIS is how a true leader acts. Thinking with his head instead of his balls.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Well sold, on THAT particular point, we really will have to agree to disagree. I don't believe in sacrificing the core values that make us who we are, just in the name of survival.
This is what has made so bitter for me playing horde ever since garrosh took over. He's sacrificing the spiritual identity of the horde, in the name of survival. Taking was used to be an honorable coalition of races united in brotherhood against a world that hated them, and turned them (by force I may add, the majority of the horde hates and fears him) into a conquering machine who takes what does not belong to them and kills anything in the way.
After MoP is over, and garrosh is removed from power, I expect changes on the horde. BIG changes, a reversal to how things used to be in war3 and vanilla/tbc wow, when the horde was HONORABLE. If there is no more change, if the despicable, warmongering horde is all that remains, then I'm out. I'm honest-to-god, out of this game.
Plus, as you said, none of this applies to Jaina. There was nothing to gain, and EVERYTHING to lose with her actions.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Rankorr.
Have you heard of what happened to the japanese in the US during the second world war?
They imprisoned due to risks.
It's something that
must
happen. The blood elves, led by aethas were literally saying "F*** that" after proof that their agents had just put another potential WMD into garroshe's hands.
I saw someone trying to loot a bank in the comotion and escape arrest.
I saw people who would attack me on sight for trying to take them in under the rightful government's authority.
I saw a small army holed up in what they call their land.
I saw sunreavers assasins and brutes infesting the tunnels under dalaran.
I saw Silver Covenant forces rounding up those who cooperate and were in the process of waiting for someone to port them into prison when a terrorist killed them for doing their jobs.
Post by
Adamsm
Have you heard of what happened to the japanese in the US during the second world war?
They imprisoned due to risks.And that was complete and utter bull!@#$; that never should have happened, as they never found a single Japanese American who had committed 'treason'. So if a group of people are coming after you, with the right to use lethal force, you'd be damn right I would be fighting back rather then letting them kill me first.
Jaina deserves to have her title stripped from her and kicked the hell out Dalaran for starting a war in the city...and honestly, Vereesa should be kicked out too.
Edit 2: Also, the last time the Blood Elves were rounded up and put into a jail, they were almost executed by a racist bigot...can you really blame them for wanting to run?
Post by
Lordplatypus
Tell me, If they had people who nearly worshipped their national leader. what would you do without hindsight?
Exactly.
Jaina did what she should have, the blood elves were suspects, hence, they needed to be imprisoned the same way all suspects are until they are proven innocent.
It's the Sunreaver's overreaction that caused all of this.
That and the horde.
Post by
Adamsm
Tell me, If they had people who nearly worshipped their national leader. what would you do without hindsight?One more time: No Japanese American who was put in those camps were ever convicted of treason, since you know, 85% of them were born in America. So they didn't 'worship' a national leader, they were loyal to their home country....you know, the United States of America. What was done to them was a crime, and never should have happened...after all, they didn't put German or Italian Americans in camps.
Edit: They did it in Canada too, and it never should have happened. It was just paranoid morons in position of powers who decided they should make it seem like they were doing something, no matter how many civil rights they stomped on to do so. Disgusting, and same situation that happened with Muslim Americans after 9/11; nothing but fear mongering.
And bull %^&* to Jaina; she flipped out and decided, just like she did in Tides of War, to blame every single Sunreaver for the action of a small renegade group. She !@#$ed up again, and shouldn't be in the position of power for the Kiran Tor; she wants a war, then step down and take the Covenant back to Alliance and get out of the last Neutral bastion of Northrend.
Post by
Berronaxwins
Rankorr.
It's something that
must
happen. The blood elves, led by aethas were literally saying "F*** that" after proof that their agents had just put another potential WMD into garroshe's hands.
I saw someone trying to loot a bank in the comotion and escape arrest.
I saw people who would attack me on sight for trying to take them in under the rightful government's authority.
I saw a small army holed up in what they call their land.
I saw sunreavers assasins and brutes infesting the tunnels under dalaran.
I saw Silver Covenant forces rounding up those who cooperate and were in the process of waiting for someone to port them into prison when a terrorist killed them for doing their jobs.
EXACTLY how i feel.
Post by
Lordplatypus
One more time: No Japanese American who was put in those camps were ever convicted of treason, since you know, 85% of them were born in America. So they didn't 'worship' a national leader, they were loyal to their home country....you know, the United States of America. What was done to them was a crime, and never should have happened...after all, they didn't put German or Italian Americans in camps.
Edit: They did it in Canada too, and it never should have happened. It was just paranoid morons in position of powers who decided they should make it seem like they were doing something, no matter how many civil rights they stomped on to do so. Disgusting, and same situation that happened with Muslim Americans after 9/11; nothing but fear mongering.
Really? You have no idea what the japanese are like, even F***ing today they keep trying to paint themselves as the victims in their history books.
I saw it myself. I was literally imprisoned for being suspicious until my visa ran out and then stuck in the country for not having a visa.
What do you think they were like 70 years ago? They believed that their emperor who was literally called Tenno (Of the sky) was a god in mortal form. Do you trust people like that?
Post by
Adamsm
Really? You have no idea what the japanese are like, even F***ing today they keep trying to paint themselves as the victims in their history books.
I saw it myself. I was literally imprisoned for being suspicious until my visa ran out and then stuck in the country for not having a visa.
What do you think they were like 70 years ago? They believed that their emperor who was literally called Tenno (Of the sky) was a god in mortal form. Do you trust people like that?
So here's a good question for you: What the &*!@ does that have to do with people who were born in the United States of America, who's only 'crime' was the fact that their race was Japanese? Because really, it was a stupid racist bigoted move to put all those innocent people in the camps, taking them away from the homes they had purchased. Do you know one of the questions they asked the people when they put them in the camps? What was the name of the current Emperor. Do you know how many of them answered that question correctly back then? Less then 15%, because most of the detainees were born and raised in the good ole US of A. They were victims back then, because they were honest Americans imprisoned by their own government.
Seriously, it was just bigoted %^&*, same as what was thrown at the Muslims born in America after 9/11.
Post by
Rankkor
Rankorr.
Have you heard of what happened to the japanese in the US during the second world war?
They imprisoned due to risks.
It's something that
must
happen. The blood elves, led by aethas were literally saying "F*** that" after proof that their agents had just put another potential WMD into garroshe's hands.
Lemme say this slowly so you can understand it:
THE SUNREAVERS WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE THEFT OF THE DIVINE BELL AT ALL.
NOT ONE OF THEM.
Wanna know how the
SILVERMOON
elves stole it? a
FORMER
sunreaver called Fanlyr Silverthorn,
LEFT
the sunreavers prior to MoP because he didn't wanted to stand idle while his homeland was under war, he became a leading officer of the reliquary (the horde's equivalent of the Explorer's League) and
THEN
(no longer being associated with the sunreavers at all) used his knowledge as a former member of the kirin tor portal network to create a portal from krasarang to darnassus, bypassing the wards of the alliance.
EVERY SINGLE SUNREAVER WAS COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF THIS, AND NOT ONE OF THEM WAS RESPONSIBLE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER
.
In fact, one of the horde quests consists precisely on asking Aethas Sunreaver to help the blood elves of silvermoon, and he refused, citing that their friendship with dalaran is 2000 years old and he's not going to toss that aside at the whim of a madman.
Also what the US did to the japanese was complete and total BS. IT was wrong back then, and it is wrong now.
I saw someone trying to loot a bank in the commotion and escape arrest.
Except you're wrong, he was not looting the bank he went there to withdraw
HIS MONEY
from the bank. Its his property being confiscated for a crime he did not committed.
I saw people who would attack me on sight for trying to take them in under the rightful government's authority.
you mean
THESE
people? if you tell me
THEY
attacked you, you're full of something that starts with an S and ends in a T. Because I can link you a vid of me in youtube walking through the civilian sunreavers when I did that quest as alliance, and at no point they attack you unless you attack them first.
Also "rightful government's authority" my big hairy ass. Jaina acted unilaterally and did what she did without consulting with the rest of the council of six, what she and Vereesa did was
ILLEGAL
.
I saw a small army holed up in
what they call their land
.
And what reason do you have to say its not their land? in case you don't know it, Dalaran (and the Kirin Tor) was co-founded by elves and humans and gnomes, and elves have lived in there for
THREE THOUSAND YEARS
. Its as much their land as it is the humans and neither has the right to kick the other one out.
Jaina on the other hand is not a citizen of Dalaran and never has been. She is a native of Kul Tiras, and later on, founder of Theramoore, but at no point was she an actual naturalized citizen of Dalaran.
I saw sunreavers assassins and brutes infesting the tunnels under dalaran.
again, THEY WERE FIGHTING BACK. They were attacked first, by a crime they did not committed. You look at me in the eye and tell me that if a cop draws a baton and starts beating the living crap out of you for no reason whatsoever, you're just gonna let him do it. GO on say it you hypocrite.
I saw Silver Covenant forces rounding up those who cooperate and were in the process of waiting for someone to port them into prison when a terrorist killed them for doing their jobs.
you need your eyes checked, because on
this quest
they're beating up
innocent people
who dont' even fight back.
I also love it how you completely ignored the UNARMED panicking civilians being beaten up, the ones being tortured in the sewers, the ones being hanged over sharks to be eaten alive, and the ones being massacred by the stormwind troops. And just went exclusively to the ones bearing arms.
Post by
morginar
Forgot le sadist
high elf
.
Post by
Rankkor
I just find it sad how he chose to refute only the ones bearing arms, but completely ignored the civilians I linked. The ones that are runing for their lives, afraid, and scared, and don't attack you unless you attack them.
Or the civilians getting beaten up on the sewers during the horde version.
Nope, those don't count, for him ALL were terrorists and thugs.
/sighs.
Post by
morginar
And the fact that the high elves did not randomly without mercy kill and torture blood elves, Loot the homes, force them to fight for sport and the did definetly not hang one above a shark.
Somehow the events in Dalaran now reminds me of the intro to 2,1 black temple. Just no demonic curse.
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