This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
Question about TANK gear
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
kophia
I currently am using askmrrobot to find the best gear and the best way to reforge and gem it. Here is my current set up:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/bleeding_hollow/dranzin
For my gloves, it says that the
Bloodforged Warfists
(Bloodforged Warfists) are ranked #4 in gear for the hand slot and
Gauntlets of Battle Command
(Gauntlets of Battle Command) are ranked #10.
I realize that DPS gear is very viable now for tanks, but how are DPS gloves so far ahead of Tank gloves? Am I better off with the Battle Command gloves?
thanks
Post by
Zakkhar
All the gear ranking are mechanical. It may use some gimmick stat weighting strategy. They are there to guide you. Just use your brain (stuff they dont have) and you should be fine.
In this particular situation you have chosen the stat weights called Control (or more likely mrrobot chose it for you as a default and you havent even realised that - its a tool, you have to learn how to use it before you use it), which overvalue hit and exp over everything else (weights for hit and exp are 3, for everything else are 1 and below).
Also relative gear rankings also show you as having 0 hit and 0 expertise (and if you are capped they show you as not capped) which makes these stats extremly overvalued.
Just change the stat weight system for PvE: avoidance build, and check rankings again.
Crafted tank hands are 4th, crafted dps hands are 8th (10th if you use absolute ranking).
Post by
Nooska
The Bloodforged Warfists are so far ahead because of the hit on them, especially if you are below hit cap this is worth more than anything else (with expertise being just below as long as you are under the exp hardcap).
The Gauntlets of Battle Command have the very yucky parry stat on them - parry and dodge are to be avoided wherever possible for paladin tanks.
Post by
kophia
All the gear ranking are mechanical. It may use some gimmick stat weighting strategy. They are there to guide you. Just use your brain (stuff they dont have) and you should be fine.
In this particular situation you have chosen the stat weights called Control (or more likely mrrobot chose it for you as a default and you havent even realised that - its a tool, you have to learn how to use it before you use it), which overvalue hit and exp over everything else (weights for hit and exp are 3, for everything else are 1 and below).
Also relative gear rankings also show you as having 0 hit and 0 expertise (and if you are capped they show you as not capped) which makes these stats extremly overvalued.
Just change the stat weight system for PvE: avoidance build, and check rankings again.
Crafted tank hands are 4th, crafted dps hands are 8th (10th if you use absolute ranking).
I did realize that it was on the default PVE, but from what I understood it was better than the avoidance build to keep damage smooth (I'm not huge into the details of tanking and what is best for what..so I have been reading elitistjerks prot paladin section since I've posted this)
Thank you for the suggestions, I will switch the build accordingly
Post by
kophia
The Bloodforged Warfists are so far ahead because of the hit on them, especially if you are below hit cap this is worth more than anything else (with expertise being just below as long as you are under the exp hardcap).
The Gauntlets of Battle Command have the very yucky parry stat on them - parry and dodge are to be avoided wherever possible for paladin tanks.
Why is parry and dodge bad for paladins? I don't remember seeing anything about this
Post by
Nooska
I'll just link to the latest of Thecks blogposts (heavy math warning) there should be links to previous and relevant blog posts and math in there;
http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/05/damage-smoothing-follow-up/
Also, the basic guid from over on Maintankadin:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33033&p=741085#p741078
As well as the EJ thread (just the OP, "How to think about your stats" and "Prioritization and overview):
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130857-prot_5_0_im_sexy_i_know/
TL;DR
Parry and dodge are better for Total Damage Reduction, but TDR is not a meaningful metric for a tank, and as soon as you gear for control (hit and exp caps) Mastery and haste become better for TDR than avoidance anyway, so parry and dodge are crappy secondariy stats to be avoided.
Also Str is 90% as good for prry as parry rating, and adds base dps.
Post by
Freezador
Dodge and parry are not bad. They are, to my understanding, better at reducing overall damage taken than the other stats along with mastery.
However, overall damage taken isn't usually what kills tanks, spikes are. So for smoother (not lower) damage intake and less healer heart attacks in this new world of active mitigation it is more beneficial to stack hit and expertise all the way to the caps (with additional benefits for DPS and reliability for when you can push the
SotR
button) and haste/mastery after that.
So going back to the choice between the two gloves it turns out that neither is really great.
Bloodforged Warfists
: Hit rating is a great stat to combat spikes and for DPS but crit rating is merely a pure DPS stat and as such not high priority but it can reforged to haste or mastery so it's not completely wasted.
Gauntlets of Battle Command
: Mastery is a good stat for both strategies to reduce total damage taken as well as combating spikes but parry is only good for the former. One should probably reforge parry to hit or expertise.
In a vacuum the gloves with hit rating are higher ranked just because of the high importance of hit assuming the control/less spikes strategy. However, when looking at a whole set of equipment you can probably reach the hit cap through other means (reforging, gemming, enchanting, other gear slots) so not every single point of hit rating from these gloves is absolutely necessary and crit is pretty much a bad stat.
Post by
atomicwolf22
Well this brings up a good point.
With Parry/Dodge being so bad for proper gearing would it be better to pick up teir peices? Or to grab off-spec dps/ or good tank peices?
Post by
Nooska
The 4piece bonus has been evaluated to be good enough compared to what we could possiby make up while avoiding the avoidance tier pieces (it is, however, funny that the ret tier helm is better itemized for prot than the prot helm is).
Also, it is correct, avoidance isn't /bad/, its just the worst damage reduction stats we have.
You should, however, not be gemming for hit/exp, you should be gemming for stamina, and reforging for hit/exp.
That said, I disagree with Freezadors "however" - each piece needs to be examined in a vacuum when compared to other pieces for the same slot. Being able to get a whole set together isn't really the issue, its how good each piece is. That said, if you are at hit cap, then the hit rating suddenly is worthless, so like all pieces with a rating that can be capped, the actual value depends on whether all of the rating is used or not.
Post by
Tontons
Although "dps" stats enhances your survivability, don't forget to appreciate avoidance either. With hit and expertise capped and reforging to haste I still have 32% of avoidance because of having tank gear. That's a real 30% damage reduction which is not less then the reduction I get from SotR. The diminishing returns are to be blamed for active mitigation stats becoming better at some point, but it's still worth to get some avoidance too, so don't be tricked into pure dps gear. The
simulations
they refer to are done accounting that you already have 5500 points spent in avoidance stats. The point is that spending the next 7000 points on parry or dodge is inferior to capping hit and expertise.
However, overall damage taken isn't usually what kills tanks, spikes are. So for smoother (not lower) damage intake and less healer heart attacks in this new world of active mitigation it is more beneficial to stack hit and expertise all the way to the caps (with additional benefits for DPS and reliability for when you can push the
SotR
button) and haste/mastery after that.
According to
link
posted by Nooska, SotR is up for 35% of the time if you have almost no hit/exp and 42% time if you got both capped.
So, with "hits" capped you get 3 seconds of 40% (or more) damage reduction followed by 4 (some average calculated from the mentioned 42%) seconds of no damage reduction.Why do you guys keep calling this "smooth". Yes, it makes you take less damage, but turning damage reduction on and off is not smooth. It's the opposite. It's predictably spiky. The actual point is that (just like with the cooldowns) the Boundless Conviction allows you to control that SotR damage reduction a little bit so you smoothen the big damage if you know what to expect. Or you can use SotR five seconds later if you got some cooldown running and then do two consecutive SotR's.
Post by
Zakkhar
That's a real 30% damage reduction
Its typical misconception. Avoidance isnt damage reduction. Mitigation is. Also there is plenty fight mechanics that cannot be affected by avoidance - magic damage and some specials included.
Post by
221451
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Alcarius
Don't compare items in a vacuum. You lose mathematical value that way, because pieces might be better than something at a glance, but when combined with something, the values can change.
Gemming for stam isn't absolutely necessary; it depends on certain factors that you need to weigh yourself. I am gemmed for expertise, a small amount of hit, and haste. I have 2 stam gems in all of my gear, the 2 JC stam gems. Once you have enough health, an amount you are comfortable with after considering the people who primarily heal you (a good question to ask yourself is: How many hits from Boss X can I take before I die without heals?), then you make the decision to spend itemization on stats like Haste or Mastery, depending upon your gearing strategy.
I am gemmed for Expertise and Haste because I am comfortable with my 665k HP raid buffed.
Post by
Nooska
665k HP raidbuffed is not an impressive amount tbh.
Also, gemming for haste, expertise, hit or anything other than stam menas you are wasting possinle stamina - you should be able to reach hit and exp caps with reforging if you can reach 665k hp.
The reason stam is king for gemming is that you cannot gain stamina from any other sources, except direct gear upgrades, gems and some enchants.
Post by
Alcarius
I don't need more stamina. I don't generally die unless it's a wipe or I screw up a mechanic. Stamina is is as much about comfort with your health pool as it is with having enough health to survive multiple boss hits without any external healing.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.