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Needing in Old Raids
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Post by
TheWheatOne
Edit: Re-did title, and reworked questions after initial answering by forum-goers.
As a relative newbie to Raids, I want four items for transmog which are in Firelands, and I want to calculate the probability of getting them using binomial distribution for long-term odds of when I can expect to get them. However, drop rates are only half the story, as there will be other players who can get the loot that drops. I'm not using LFR, so I'm not talking about LFR or the default group loots of current expansion Raids.
My top questions are:
Who can exactly loot what in old Raids? Can literally anyone loot everything if given the chance, even if they cannot actually use it (Priest Needing on a sword, Leather-wearer Needing on Plate armor)? Can Plate-users loot every type of armor, regardless of his ability to use its stats?
Since this is an old Raid (compared to current level Raids), and more players means more chance of ninjas, what amount of people is still needed for reasonable progress in Normal 10man Firelands? I know it still needs two tanks, and two healers would prevent a lot of unneeded deaths still (per caution, even if one healer can out-heal the damage to all). Not sure of the amount of dps classes though. Maybe two also? Or still all six? Or are tanks powerful enough to win now with their own relatively meager dps, it just takes a lot longer?
Given experience, how likely will PuGs ninja, even if you call out that you want those items? How many people usually Need per item that you're aiming for, on average?
To clarify, I'm a Holy Priest, so basically everyone can Need on the cloth items I want, and Staffs are definitely on top the want-list for Transmog of all casters (and that means plenty of classes want it).
Post by
Adamsm
When it comes to current content(IE Mists dungeons/raids in this case), it is based on your class: Druids/Monks/Rogues can need on Leather but no one else can, Mages/Priests/Warlocks can need on cloth but no one else can, Hunters/Shamans can need on mail but no one else can, and Paladins/Death Knights/Warriors can need on plate.
When it comes to old Content(IE anything below current expansion), anyone can need on anything. But when it comes to transmog, it's only based on armour type: Cloth to cloth, leather to leather, mail to mail, plate to plate etc etc etc. So if you want to farm old raids, just make sure you tell people what pieces you want or be the master looter for the fights where that piece drops.
Post by
bound4earth
During Wrath of the Lich King 10/25 man raids had two separate lockouts. They both had completely different gear outside of lower iLvl tier gear in 10 man. When Cataclysm was in development they made a smart move and decided 10 and 25 man would drop the same gear, so they changed the raid lockout to once a week instead of one 10 man and one 25 man. This was a retroactive change for everything prior (mainly Wrath). Some people hate the change, but I did not enjoy running both 10 and 25 man for BiS. Not enough content is a poor validation for a broken system.
Loot rolls all depend on the type of loot rules. Every group/raid runs under the "Group Loot" rule by default. I can need or greed any item that drops. This does not mean everyone will go around needing every item. If they do you just kick them out of the raid. The general consensus is if you want the item you need, if not you greed (mostly for vender loot). Most retroactive raids use this rule for loot.
There is a middle ground "Need Before Greed" which is currently used in LFG. It sounds a lot more fair then it really ends up being. If I can equip a one handed sword, then I can roll on any one handed sword, regardless of stats. Same thing goes for gear proficiencies. If I can wear Plate, I can need roll on all plate and since plate wearers being at the top of the proficiency chart can wear everything below it down to cloth gear, they can roll on all of that too. This is one of the innate problems with "Need Before Greed." Anyone that cannot use the item will auto pass, yet somehow plate wearers ( who will not wear anything below plate) get to roll on everything under the sun except a few weapons? BoE items are an exception to this rule as anyone can roll on them. Someone may not be able to equip an item, but that doesn't mean they should be excluded from need rolls for newer additions like
Glyph of Felguard
, or greed rolls for DE or vendor loot. You may disagree, but remember this will not be a popular option and it much harder to put together a group with these loot rules. I would never run a raid of any type if the leader even tried.
Sometimes a raid leader will put items on reserve and use Master Looting. Most current raids use Master Looting as it eliminates most issues that may arise. All loot is disturbed by the raid leader after manual /rolls, except for any items that might be on reserve. I would recommend you set up the raids yourself and put the items you want on reserve, but be warned, depending on the items it may make groups harder to put together. Most people are fine with master looter as long as it's open rolls (generally mirrors group loot rules without any chance of Ninjas taking items) or you tell them which specific items are reserved before you start the raid.
If you say nothing about loot rules the default group loot is implied. Class/Spec and stats on the gear are irrelevant during loot rolls outside of LFG/LFR/"Need Before Greed." Just a heads up, Priests use spirit in all specs now. It works as hit for them now in shadow just like expertise compliments hit for casters (although only in terms of reforging for casters, you will not see expertise on cloth). If you are leveling up, some people may bicker about a low level running raids, but most of them get over it as they are most likely too lazy, unskilled, d bags, or have never been laid enough to put one together, so ignore em.
If you have anymore questions or need more clarification just continue below and I'll do my best.
Edit: My "Need Before Greed" experience is from way back in Vanilla/BC when most people abandoned it, so it might have evolved somewhat, although I doubt much if any did change.
Post by
Nulgar
You can still greed in Need before Greed, it's just that Need rolls are limited to your own armor class and weapons you can equip. Unsure whether it now looks at spec, too.
Post by
Siiw
How old is the raid you are talking about? If you want the items for transmog, you are probably several levels higher than the target group for the raid. It is likely that there will be fewer than 10 players in your raid, many old raids are even doable with only two people.
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheWheatOne
@ Siiw Its the Firelands Raid. Although I'm sure I won't truly need 10 players total, it will go much faster with say 8, rather than 2, since mistakes are common when people don't care enough. I also do not normally do Raids, and instead I mostly have Heroic dungeon and Valor gear, not current patch Raid-level gear. So I'm not too hardcore in tactics or coordination that is needed in Raids, even if they are old, they can still do a ton of damage to those still dumb enough to stand in a fire all battle, thinking they can just power through without a thought. Plus, Firelands is still relatively new, at least compared to WotLK raids. I would guess at least 5 people are needed still.
Post by
TheWheatOne
So let me get this straight, so I can make sure I understand everything.
In old raids, anyone can need, regardless if they can use it or what role it is used for. So basically everyone can ninja right?
Post by
Adamsm
So let me get this straight, so I can make sure I understand everything.
In old raids, anyone can need, regardless if they can use it or what role it is used for. So basically everyone can ninja right?
Pretty much yes...but that's really why you run those old raid with your friends/guild mates. so that way you don't have to worry about that.
Post by
Nulgar
In old raids, anyone can need, regardless if they can use it or what role it is used for. So basically everyone can ninja right?With the standard loot method, "Group Loot", yes, this is the default loot rule for everything outside of LFG - unless the party/raid leader changes it, of course.
Anyway: you can filter out other plate users from your raid, but at some point, it's wiser to just trust people. And it's better to find a group for the raid and maybe have to roll against another player on the item you want, than to not run the raid at all.
Post by
TheWheatOne
With the standard loot method, "Group Loot", yes, this is the default loot rule for everything outside of LFG - unless the party/raid leader changes it, of course.
Anyway: you can filter out other plate users from your raid, but at some point, it's wiser to just trust people. And it's better to find a group for the raid and maybe have to roll against another player on the item you want, than to not run the raid at all.
Wait. So not everyone can loot on everything? Otherwise why would it matter if they are a plate-user or not?
Post by
CalaelenDT
With the standard loot method, "Group Loot", yes, this is the default loot rule for everything outside of LFG - unless the party/raid leader changes it, of course.
Anyway: you can filter out other plate users from your raid, but at some point, it's wiser to just trust people. And it's better to find a group for the raid and maybe have to roll against another player on the item you want, than to not run the raid at all.
Wait. So not everyone can loot on everything? Otherwise why would it matter if they are a plate-user or not?
With the default "Group Loot" setting everyone will be able to Need and Greed on everything, regardless of class/spec/armor classifications.
If you don't want to deal with any competition on your loot, you can decide to not bring any plate wearing classes (if you are after plate gear yourself) so there won't be anyone rolling against you (in general). That's what Nulgar was refering to.
Your best bet is to go with either:
- mentioning what items are reserved in your advertisement, and using Master Looter for those bosses so you don't have to worry about anyone else rolling against you
- setting it to "Need before Greed" which will only allow other users that can actually equip the item from rolling, and hoping you get lucky with the rolls
Post by
TheWheatOne
With the default "Group Loot" setting everyone will be able to Need and Greed on everything, regardless of class/spec/armor classifications.
If you don't want to deal with any competition on your loot, you can decide to not bring any plate wearing classes (if you are after plate gear yourself) so there won't be anyone rolling against you (in general). That's what Nulgar was refering to.
Your best bet is to go with either:
- mentioning what items are reserved in your advertisement, and using Master Looter for those bosses so you don't have to worry about anyone else rolling against you
- setting it to "Need before Greed" which will only allow other users that can actually equip the item from rolling, and hoping you get lucky with the rolls
Hmm. I'm not experienced enough with Raids for me to be comfortable as a leader. Not to mention I'm not the leader-type. I expect to simply be a supporting assistant as a healer, that happens to aim at certain loot with low probability. So I'm guessing PuGs are out of the question for reasonable amount of time? Perhaps I should just get a guild that does Suicide Kings and wait it out. That may take a while though.
On a side note though, for PuGs, how many people should come along with me, to get a reasonable chance at getting the item I want, while still progressing at a steady pace? Should it still be 10 players even with MoP gear? Or less?
Post by
CalaelenDT
Normal mode Firelands was already easily 8-manned in Cataclysm with a decent group, so you should be fine taking 7-8 people that are decently geared. With a solid group you can probably take less but you never know what you are bringing in a PuG so it's better to be on the safe side.
If you don't want to lead a group yourself (note that with the huge increase in stats that you have now a lot of things will become much easier, so you will probably be fine leading it as long as you know the basic strategy of each fight) than your only option will be to join someone elses run and hope you get what you are looking for.
It depends on your server activity on how easy finding a group will be. On my server there are always people doing old raids for transmog, mounts, achievements, etc. so it wasn't hard finding a group.
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