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"You can't say that because it offends me"
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Post by
Squishalot
Nothing wrong with being against me, but I'm still challenging you guys to separate the harm in a fat joke from the offence.
Post by
557473
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Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Laihendi
Next you're going to say "words will never hurt me"? Harm comes in all shapes and sizes. If someone is offended, then they've been harmed, if ever so slightly. Where do you draw the line between telling a fat joke and offending someone, and telling a fat joke and contributing to the ongoing bullying of the person?
If a person is fat, then he's fat. If he feels offended when someone calls him fat, he has poor self esteem and is self conscious about his weight. The problem isn't that he's being called fat, the problem is that he
is
fat and he feels bad about it. If he believes that being fat is not a good thing, then he should do something about it (diet, exercise, lipo, whatever), rather than just have his feelings be hurt whenever someone draws attention to his weight.
If he feels that, considering the circumstances, it's understandable and acceptable for him to be fat (perhaps he has a health disorder that causes it) then he will be confident enough in himself to know that there is no reason for him to feel ashamed of his weight, because that's just how he is and he can't help it. If he is confident in his decisions and his lifestyle, then he will not be offended when someone tries to make fun of him for being fat.
Post by
asakawa
Well, that's all not really true either.
Tell a 15 year old girl that she's fat and no matter what her weight you'll almost certainly have an effect on her. This isn't quite the same as "taking offence" but probably hits on what Squish is talking about.
My position is that
the fact that someone has taken offence tells you nothing about the validity of the statement
. There may be plenty of reasons that a statement is invalid but the level of offence taken by others is not a factor.
Post by
Interest
You know, I had something prepared in response to this thread but I had to go to sleep before making it and now I've mostly forgotten it, so I guess I'll just put bullet notes on what I think as it comes to mind.
Freedom of speech/expression is all well and good, but as some others have said there is a line where it goes from having free speech to expressing outright hatred or otherwise verbally abusing someone.
On the basis of the preceding statement, I think there may also be a degree of how a statement is treated from both the speaker's and target's point of view, based on the tone of the statement, how well the other person can handle such verbal statements, and possibly other factors (the presence of other people which could result in "public humiliation" and so on).
This means there is some level of variance, as has already been discussed, which could determine whether a statement is to be taken as a joke or seriously.
Using all of the above, for me this concept is as clear cut as if the statement is clearly or even subtly intended to be condescending, insulting, or abusive in some sort of manner without sounding obviously sarcastic or humorous, it should be considered as a harmful verbal statement that probably shouldn't be covered by freedom of speech.
Post by
Orranis
Today witnesses state that the self-titled postmaster Interest of Wowhead posted in a debate thread, with actual debating material. In other news, the face eating attack is now reported to have been the start of an unknown epidemic of infection biting in Miami and is quickly spreading outwards in what has become known as a zombie apocalypse, and our correspondents in Mexico reporting on the possible witness of flying pigs. All this and more, after the break.
Post by
Interest
Today witnesses state that the self-titled postmaster Interest of Wowhead posted in a debate thread, with actual debating material. In other news, the face eating attack is now reported to have been the start of an unknown epidemic of infection biting in Miami and is quickly spreading outwards in what has become known as a zombie apocalypse, and our correspondents in Mexico reporting on the possible witness of flying pigs. All this and more, after the break.
Self-titled? I think I got that from someone else first.
Post by
Azazel
I know this, I used to be a total $%^& who offended people on a daily basis. Sometimes I feel it's just necessary. There are very few cases where it's necessary though.
This this this. I know exactly how it feels.
Post by
OverZealous
I never was able to understand where to draw the line - what things people would be offended by, and what wouldn't offend them, so I generally keep quiet unless I feel the need to spit out a sarcastic comment (which happens
way
too often).
Post by
Kristopher
Today witnesses state that the self-titled postmaster Interest of Wowhead posted in a debate thread, with actual debating material. In other news, the face eating attack is now reported to have been the start of an unknown epidemic of infection biting in Miami and is quickly spreading outwards in what has become known as a zombie apocalypse, and our correspondents in Mexico reporting on the possible witness of flying pigs. All this and more, after the break.
Don't forget to mention the return of Laihendi in all those wondrous events.
On topic;
Imma be honest, does it really hurt somebody to just keep his/her mouth shut to avoid offending somebody? A little restraint used to be a good thing, whether you should have to or not, I think that asking yourself "is it really worth it to say this" is usually a good idea.
You have to judge the situation, sometimes offending someone is going to far and sometimes it's needed.
Pretty much this.
I think that the right to express oneself should not be hindered because someone'll get their panties in a bunch because of it, but there are certain places where prudence should control what is being said, if only to avoid offending an extremely hostile person.
But just because you "can" go around offending everyone if you feel like it, I don't think you should. Respect, y'know?
Post by
613797
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Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
The problem with "offensive words" is that the only reason they have meaning and power is because people give them that power. If they just stopped caring, if they just decided "oh, you said that? Should I care?" then they would realize they are no longer offended by those words and be able to go on their merry way. Because people continue to consider these words as offensive, however, they maintain the power they have and continue to be offensive.
To put it in comical terms; offensive words and phrases are the very first completely self-sustaining creations of mankind.
Post by
Aimsyr
My position is that
the fact that someone has taken offence tells you nothing about the validity of the statement
. There may be plenty of reasons that a statement is invalid but the level of offence taken by others is not a factor.
I think this nicely gets to the heart of the matter.
Agreed.
Either way, I feel that prohibiting people from saying something offensive really is only going to impede upon their right to free speech. I mean, if you truly want to make sure you never insult anyone in the slightest you would not be able to talk at all. Even then, you could still offend someone by your actions.
Please note that I am not for discrimination and I do feel that at least some tact should be used when dealing with others - it is just that, while trying to avoid offending people too much is generally a good idea, if you are not allowed to offend other people at all you have effectively lost your right to freedom of speech.
Edit: I have to agree with Morec on it too, offensive words and the like only have power because we give them that power.
At the same time I feel it is understandable that some people, such as victims of the holocaust, may take offence to jokes about the holocaust. With that in mind, it is their right to take offence to such jokes due to freedom of opinion, so in some cases I feel it is understandable that you should not bring up the kinds of things that will cause offence - other people's feelings need to be taken into account
as well as
your right to free speech.
Post by
Squishalot
Well, that's all not really true either.
Tell a 15 year old girl that she's fat and no matter what her weight you'll almost certainly have an effect on her. This isn't quite the same as "taking offence" but probably hits on what Squish is talking about.
My position is that
the fact that someone has taken offence tells you nothing about the validity of the statement
. There may be plenty of reasons that a statement is invalid but the level of offence taken by others is not a factor.
That's a strawman - we weren't talking about the validity of the statement (or at least, I wasn't). I was talking about whether it's it's the right thing to do.
Le sigh. I didn't say bullying causes physical harm, I said it causes harm, and harm is where the line should be drawn. Telling a fat joke to a person who isn't comfortable with fat jokes causes harm; telling a racist joke to me causes only offense. There is a difference, and I was not "next going to say" they're both fine when I had just finished saying the first one isn't.
I disagree - why does a racist joke cause you offense? Is it because you're not comfortable with racist jokes? Does it therefore cause you harm? Do you think it harms the community? Or should it be okay to tell racist jokes?
Even if I did agree with you, I don't think that you (or I, or anyone else) are capable of being able to draw the line between 'harm' and 'rude/crude/offensive' in an everyday situation. Most people aren't going to pipe up and tell you that they feel hurt by your words, because of precisely the attitude that this thread is based on - "it's just a whine, toughen up, princess". Well no, I don't think Stephen Fry is capable of determining that it's 'simply a whine', and I don't think we are either. What's wrong with simply keeping our mouths shut about something if we're at all uncertain of whether it's going to cause harm?
If a person is fat, then he's fat. If he feels offended when someone calls him fat, he has poor self esteem and is self conscious about his weight. The problem isn't that he's being called fat, the problem is that he is fat and he feels bad about it.
If a person is gay, then he's gay. If he feels offended when someone calls him a <insert derisive gay term here>, is it because he has poor self esteem and is self conscious about his sexuality?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
MyTie
The problem with "offensive words" is that the only reason they have meaning and power is because people give them that power. If they just stopped caring, if they just decided "oh, you said that? Should I care?" then they would realize they are no longer offended by those words and be able to go on their merry way. Because people continue to consider these words as offensive, however, they maintain the power they have and continue to be offensive.
To put it in comical terms; offensive words and phrases are the very first completely self-sustaining creations of mankind.
This works out pretty well, for some people, but not everyone has this personality. For instance, InternetSwag once made a direct reference to raping my son's corpse, who died a few years back. That's something that is probably the most hurtful thing you could say to a parent, but I didn't give a second thought to it really. Someone then emailed me and made fun of it, with the intent of bothering me with it. Again, it really doesn't bother me. They had actually kept a screenshot of it, a long time after it had been removed from wowhead. That's quite a bit of dedication to try to bother me. I have remarkably thick skin, and I have for years. It can be infuriating to people when they are mad at me, and I respond without emotion, stoically. I find it actually makes things harder to be cold to other people, not directly for me, but indirectly for me because it makes it hard to relate to me. It also makes it hard for other people to relate to me. I'm so cold and stoic that I step over the line A LOT for other people, and when I do, I'm not really bothered that I just offended them. It takes a special kind of person to be around that, and enjoy it. People who are not used to me have a very hard time understanding where I'm coming from.
I said all that to say that being offended and not offending people is actually a useful form of communication for maintaining social norms and functioning. People don't realize it, but they use these invisible "lines" as hard and fast rules to define most of their relationships. I've learned where the lines are, more and more, as I get older, but it's more of a memorization than it is a natural thing for me. The fact that I'm so cynical, in the fashion of "why should I" makes it more difficult. I mean, why should I respect the lines of other people? I still don't know. The best answer I can give is it makes life easier for me. It isn't that I don't respect people, or care about them, I guess it's just that I don't understand it.
It is useful, though. Disregard it at your own peril.
Post by
SquireKel
If a person is fat, then he's fat. If he feels offended when someone calls him fat, he has poor self esteem and is self conscious about his weight. The problem isn't that he's being called fat, the problem is that he is fat and he feels bad about it.
If a person is gay, then he's gay. If he feels offended when someone calls him a <insert derisive gay term here>, is it because he has poor self esteem and is self conscious about his sexuality?
No. Poor self-esteem and self-consciousness about sexuality may enhance the issues, but using the derogatory term as an insult is the offender. Telling someone they are gay (or fat, etc) in a factual manner is one thing, but to use that characteristic as an insult is quite another. In the first instance, it would be like telling someone their hair is black or their eyes are blue - merely listing a feature of the person. But to then twist the feature into an insult, attempting to minimize the person on the basis of that feature or to cause harm...it is then that the offending statement is made. Tone and intent play a large role in this, but unfortunately, poor self-esteem / self-consciousness can cause the person to project the idea that the comment was an insult. This internalized hatred can come from a variety of causes, but the result is the same.
Regardless, a person is offended because they feel the speaker is saying something attacking. I personally feel offended when someone makes racial comments or jokes, though I am a white female and the statements are not toward my racial profile. I also feel offended when someone says things toward my individual person with the intent to harm, though I won't elaborate on specifics. When something factual is said, however, there is no offense taken. (Note: this does not apply to opinions stated in a factual manner, or attempts to use supposed facts to uphold offensive statements)
The problem with "offensive words" is that the only reason they have meaning and power is because people give them that power. If they just stopped caring, if they just decided "oh, you said that? Should I care?" then they would realize they are no longer offended by those words and be able to go on their merry way. Because people continue to consider these words as offensive, however, they maintain the power they have and continue to be offensive.
To put it in comical terms; offensive words and phrases are the very first completely self-sustaining creations of mankind.
I don't know you, but I imagine you've not been bullied or harassed much in your life, if at all. I have. Let me make something clear: no matter how strong a person is emotionally or mentally, they will break down after repeated incidents of people calling them "offensive words." It may not be the first time, it may take weeks or months or even years, but those words actually do take a toll on a person - even if they try to ignore them or "stop caring." At first, the words have a big impact, but as time progresses and the incidents continue, a person can build up a resistance to them. But given more time and more situations, that resistance falters, the internal wall built to protect the person emotionally crumbles, and the words begin to have a more pronounced effect.
And regardless of whether the person to whom the "offending words" are being said is able to ignore them and "be on their merry way," the person who said them is at fault. Saying something offensive to someone, knowing how the words will be received, is offensive in itself because it is intentionally trying to hurt someone. Freedom of speech only goes so far.
Post by
Aimsyr
@SquireKel: Not everyone will react the same way to being called names or insulted.
And the point of Freedom of Speech is the right to express your opinions, whatever the circumstances. I'm not arguing against you, just bringing up a few points upon which I have differing opinions - personally I believe free of speech is important, though other people's feelings
do
need to be taken into account. At least to an extent that is.
I think Morec was talking about it more in the context of 'rude' words and insults that are said without the intent of bullying. Bullying is somewhat of a difference topic, in my opinion, as it is repeated attempts to hurt a someone or try to offend them when they are at their weakest.
Personally I if I have a problem with someone I'll confront them about it, otherwise I do my best to refrain from talking about them behind their back. I also only joke about people when I know with relative certainty they will not take offence, if I suspect they will take offence I avoid saying anything. At the same I take jokes and insults aimed at me in my stride, as other it wouldn't be fair for me to do the same things in turn.
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