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Moral Ambiguity (Grey Vs Grey) Vs Black Vs White Morality
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Post by
MyTie
Was the killing of that american citizen terrorist right? Grey
Is abortion right? Black and White
...what?
I guess what I'm saying is I prefer a mix. Star Trek was pretty good at presenting black and white situations, but then presenting grey in that black and white, and the question of whether to follow black and white or see grey. The prime directive comes to mind, as well as other situations. That was pretty much what the whole show was about.
Post by
Jubilee
I don't remember a single black and white issue on Star Trek, except for the fact that the guy in red is always going to die.
Post by
Adamsm
I don't remember a single black and white issue on Star Trek, except for the fact that the guy in red is always going to die.
Anything that wasn't human and attacked them was evil?
Edit: Well in the original series at least.
Post by
xaratherus
I don't remember a single black and white issue on Star Trek, except for the fact that the guy in red is always going to die.
I think the fact that Q was a total plick was pretty black and white...
Post by
gamerunknown
Sam Harris would disagree about there being no moral objectivity. Here's what I wrote on another forum on the matter:
It is possible to discuss moral concepts rationally, since rationality involves proportion. Thus we can say that if murder is bad, mass-murder is worse and extirpation is worst. Likewise we can discuss moral concepts logically through the use of syllogism. If we take the proposition that murdering humans is wrong (thus, only causing someone a fatal wound without their approval, nor the states, avoiding the difficulty of sanctioned killing and vegetarian complaints), then if separating a stranger's head from their body kills them, then separating that stranger's head from their body is wrong (incoming logical positivists). It is possible to further operationalise these concepts by doing just noticable difference tests and using a neuroimager to determine how much pain a person feels in various scenarios (where ethically possible). Then we adopt the concept that we should promote the ability to feel pleasure and reduce the capacity for pain in as many humans over as long a period as possible. This concept may not be sufficient to determine the correct course of action in contentious scenarios where there is a dearth of information (for example, whether it is better to research finding a cure for cancer or a treatment, or whether to fund a cure for cancer over a cure for AIDS). However the principle does make testable predictions which may be framed along the lines of "allowing murderers free reign to do as they wish is worse for society than not", with societies health being measured by the human development index. This view could be partially supported by evolutionary stable strategies under game theory too. It can also be useful as a justification for restricting the liberties of those that would severely impede the liberties of others to a greater degree (i.e stopping those that would execise their freedom to swing their arms at the expense of your freedom of not being punched in the face). You could also frame the justification of murder as being wrong as that it lacks consent, it causes an individual pain and it prevents them from ever pursuing pleasure again.
Post by
gnomerdon
<inserts controversial remark>
Black and white, no.
Black and yellow? yes
I think stories should be gray. In the end, the evil villains also have a reason just like good people.
For instance, Joker vs Batman. I'm on Joker's side.
Post by
Adamsm
For instance, Joker vs Batman. I'm on Joker's side.So, you are insane just like Joker is? One of his mooks put it best, when talking about working for him: The Joker can be a good boss; at one moment he's throwing money at you cause he doesn't care....the next though? You are likely to be killed by him just for the hell of it. It's a win lose situation, and you just hope you are on a winning streak.
Post by
gnomerdon
Joker isn't insane. Define insane. What gives people the right to call other people insane? They all share the same characteristics as what you would call "normal" people.
Post by
Adamsm
Joker isn't insane. Define insane. What gives people the right to call other people insane? They all share the same characteristics as what you would call "normal" people.
.....Um......what? Out of the entire DC multiverse, the one standard is that the Joker of it is completely and utterly bat @#$% crazy; this is the same man who created a gas that makes people smile like he does, shot and raped Barbara Gorden for fun and to drive her father into a mental breakdown, constantly goes up against the Batman because it's 'fun', murdered thousands of people, and killed the man responsible for the Infinite Crisis, not because he tried to destroy the world....but because he left the Joker off his list of criminals to use. What about any of that is sane to you?
Post by
Azazel
If he isn't insane, then why is he locked up in a prison for the insane?
Post by
gnomerdon
Because you people locked him in there, and made a rule that beautiful people like him shall not live with society!
Post by
606231
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gnomerdon
He should be locked up for doing horrendous things, but he shouldn't be lowered as a human being by being called insane. By doing that, you are even worst than joker. Variation is beautiful and a form of art.
Post by
Adamsm
He should be locked up for doing horrendous things, but he shouldn't be lowered as a human being by being called insane. By doing that, you are even worst than joker. Variation is beautiful and a form of art.
Now I know it's Face trolling...but you do realize that Joker mocks his own insanity all the time right? And says that he actually enjoys being in Arkham....seriously, at least do a little bit of research on the character before you try to troll.
Post by
pezz
Sam Harris would disagree about there being no moral objectivity. Here's what I wrote on another forum on the matter:
<snip>
That whole analysis rests right on major Utilitarian premises.
Edit: facesmasher? Research? In the same sentence? Confused pezz!
Post by
gnomerdon
How am I trolling?
edit: If I did troll, it would be somewhere else.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I feel like the more a troll knows about a subject, the more ridiculous things he can come up with to say about it.
On Topic- I think Joker is a great example of a "Black and White" situation- he's a nut, and all he does is kill people and make them miserable for entertainment, and maybe a little money. Your grey cases are Dr. Freeze, who is trying to get the money to save is wife most of the time- he's still wrong, but you can understand the desperation. Catwoman is another grey case- a thief, yes, but generally not a murderer and (if I remember correctly) will sometimes come out fighting on the side of what's right when something crosses her own moral line.
Post by
Adamsm
A lot of the Batman villains hit the gray area.....sometimes: depending on the writer,
The Mad Hatter
is either a slightly amusing little crazed man or....a complete and utter monster who scares the !@#$ out of the Joker at times.....
But the main Black and White ones are Joker, Killer Croc, Al Ghul(literally in his case as he makes things very clear), Poison Ivy. While the major grays are the Riddler, Mr Freeze, Catwoman, Tahlia Al Ghul, Penguin(again depending on the writer), Bane(of all people). Then there are the villains who are devoted solely to greed, such as Firefly(one of the few pure mercenary villains), any of the hitman characters, and those who just steal to make money.
Post by
238331
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
A lot of the Batman villains hit the gray area.....sometimes: depending on the writer,
The Mad Hatter
is either a slightly amusing little crazed man or....a complete and utter monster who scares the !@#$ out of the Joker at times.....
But the main Black and White ones are Joker, Killer Croc, Al Ghul(literally in his case as he makes things very clear), Poison Ivy. While the major grays are the Riddler, Mr Freeze, Catwoman, Tahlia Al Ghul, Penguin(again depending on the writer), Bane(of all people). Then there are the villains who are devoted solely to greed, such as Firefly(one of the few pure mercenary villains), any of the hitman characters, and those who just steal to make money.
Baby Doll is very much a morally-gray character. I don't know if she was ever featured in the comics, but those animated episodes with her were always my favorite because I felt so much sympathy for her, even as she was being disturbingly evil.
Oh, and the Joker
is
bat^&*! insane.
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