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Occupy Wall Street Protests
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Post by
Heckler
I don't particularly want to see Republicans or Democrats embracing it, well, not necessarily not embracing it, but trying to gravitate it towards their own party for their own agenda. The idea that it will become a 'Democratic Party Movement' is actually something that troubles me a lot.
I don't think it will. I think even if it meant choosing between an official alliance with the Democrats or fading into obscurity - they would choose to fade. They seem pretty firm in the opinion that it should be a non-political social movement.
In my opinion, this means that they will probably eventually just become uninteresting ("What are you going to do, stand in the park forever?"). If the movement doesn't strongly support specific policy eventually, I think people will simply stop paying attention and write them off as another failed attempt at fixing problems.
I understand them wanting to avoid partisan alliances, but it seems to me the "best" thing they could do is very specifically choose 2 or 3 policy matters, and rally about them. At that point, if Congresspeople
join in
, then OWS steered politics, but not the other way around (which I don't think would violate their ideals, nor harm the movement).
Post by
629826
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
629826
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I read today that they marched to rich people's houses. If I had been one of those rich people, I would have met them at my gate wearing a tuxedo, complete with top hat and cane (like mr peanut), smoking a cigar made from 100 dollar bills, making jokes about child labor in third world countries.
Post by
gamerunknown
lol @ ows protesters. there's jobs ya know?
Yeah, a 1000 mile commute isn't too bad.
These idiots were bamboozled, by public education, into thinking that a college education would get them some where.
Why so hostile to education precisely?
Post by
Heckler
These idiots were bamboozled, by public education, into thinking that a college education would get them some where.
Why so hostile to education precisely?
Same question. Disdain for higher education seems to be a common thing these days, I don't quite get it. I realize it's not for everyone, but certainly there's value in it.
Regardless, I don't think its an effective attack against OWS to say "Ha ha, you're an idiot for thinking that fancy shmancy college degree was worthwhile."
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Unfortunately, the junior high ideal that "lol, ur a nerd- you study and ask questions and get A's and stuff" seems to be sticking with people longer and longer these days. A college degree may not be the fast track to fame and fortune, but college graduates do still, on average, earn a lot more than non-college graduates.
In 2009, the average person age 25-34 with a Bachleor's Degree was earning 15-18,000 MORE a year (based on gender) than someone who had a high school degree. That's 40,000 vs. 25,000 for women, or 51,000 vs. 33,000 for men. And keep in mind, a lot of the higher-paying jobs that don't require a degree are pretty physically strenuous, and most people I know would rather do something boring than break their back. No offense to those who don't "believe" in college educations, but that does seem to have some value.
What's happening now isn't that college education has no value. It's that, with the economy in the pit right now, there are a lack of jobs across the board, at all levels. A lot of these kids coming out of college hadn't anticipated that a job might be hard to find, and so they're feeling like the educational system failed them.
Also, a lot of students who are coming out of college now have never worked before, because they never had to. Parents think that they're doing their kids a favor by not asking them to get a job in high school, or college. But then the kids graduate and have no work history, no references, and nothing to show what kind of a job candidate they might be, other than that they meed the educational requirements. So, they go up against "blue collar" kids with the same degree, who can hand over references from their high school job ringing up groceries, their part-time waitress job in college and their student work-study supervisor, all saying that they work hard and have a positive attitude. Guess who gets the job?
Finally, a lot of these kids can't get unemployment because they never worked, but they also refuse to take a retail job, or a low-paying clerical job, to build employment history, because they feel it's beneath them. They expect to make the same kind of salary their parents make with 25 years of seniority as a new employee, and think that they are entitled to not have to work for less.
I'm not saying the system is perfect- they don't prepare kids for the real world. They either underemphasize how important education is, or they put it on a pedestal and don't teach kids to prepare to enter the work force in other ways as well as school. But to say college has no value is ridiculous. When the economy comes back, and more jobs open up, those college kids will be the ones who are getting hired for the higher paying jobs, and the people who scoff at college will still be making about 60% of what they would be making with a higher education.
Post by
Heckler
. . . . . .
Well said, I agree with just about all of it. I do think it's worth pointing out that there are plenty of people who are willing to take a retail job, but end up working there for years while struggling to pay rent and student loan interest (in addition to everything else). Then when a job does open up, they are automatically low on the list because they have no work experience
in their field
, and they've been out of school long enough to make the employer worry that they may have lost some of that education. In addition, if they ever missed a student loan payment, their credit history might not look so great; and credit checks are a routine part of any high-education-required job.
From Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn:
"We are prepared to provide permits for First Amendment uses of Westlake Park during regular park hours,"
"First Amendment Permits" ? lol, interesting concept. I Google'd "First Amendment Permit" and "Free Speech Permit" and (to my surprise) they're actually pretty prevalent (
here's an example from the Bay Area subway system BART
). Kinda like the infamous "
Free Speech Zones
" I guess.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Post by
MyTie
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
If only the concept were objective.
Post by
Monday
Elhonna, very well said.
Post by
MyTie
My brother is 19, in college, with straight As. He pays for it by working on farms during the summer. He saves money by taking canned food and rice out of my pantry, and not having a car. He lives in someone's attic spare room a few miles from the college. He never misses a class.. NEVER, even if he is really sick. He got into a wreck bicycling to college yesterday, which totaled the bike. He had to go to the hospital, but instead went to his classes, then walked to the hospital. They stitched him up, and he walked home. This was with all his bags and stuff. On the weekends he does nothing but study and go to church. To help with tuition, he works for the student government as the clubs director. He will be running for student government president for the coming school year, for a nice resume bullet. That guy has more heart and more character than most people twice his age. I see people like him, that push on through adversity, without complaining, and I see people like these wall st protesters, who blame everyone else for their problems, and I don't feel sorry for them. Everyone has hard times. You face the challenge, and work through it, because there is always someone with a bigger problem that isn't whining about it.
Post by
Heckler
My brother is 19, in college, with straight As. He pays for it by working on farms during the summer. He saves money by taking canned food and rice out of my pantry, and not having a car. He lives in someone's attic spare room a few miles from the college. He never misses a class.. NEVER, even if he is really sick. He got into a wreck bicycling to college yesterday, which totaled the bike. He had to go to the hospital, but instead went to his classes, then walked to the hospital. They stitched him up, and he walked home. This was with all his bags and stuff. On the weekends he does nothing but study and go to church. To help with tuition, he works for the student government as the clubs director. He will be running for student government president for the coming school year, for a nice resume bullet. That guy has more heart and more character than most people twice his age. I see people like him, that push on through adversity, without complaining, and I see people like these wall st protesters, who blame everyone else for their problems, and I don't feel sorry for them. Everyone has hard times. You face the challenge, and work through it, because there is always someone with a bigger problem that isn't whining about it.
He is the 99%. Hopefully his hard work pays off, and he doesn't have any bad luck that causes something that can't simply be "worked through."
Post by
Orranis
My brother is 19, in college, with straight As. He pays for it by working on farms during the summer. He saves money by taking canned food and rice out of my pantry, and not having a car. He lives in someone's attic spare room a few miles from the college. He never misses a class.. NEVER, even if he is really sick. He got into a wreck bicycling to college yesterday, which totaled the bike. He had to go to the hospital, but instead went to his classes, then walked to the hospital. They stitched him up, and he walked home. This was with all his bags and stuff. On the weekends he does nothing but study and go to church. To help with tuition, he works for the student government as the clubs director. He will be running for student government president for the coming school year, for a nice resume bullet. That guy has more heart and more character than most people twice his age. I see people like him, that push on through adversity, without complaining, and I see people like these wall st protesters, who blame everyone else for their problems, and I don't feel sorry for them. Everyone has hard times. You face the challenge, and work through it, because there is always someone with a bigger problem that isn't whining about it.
So wait, you're arguing that your brother works incredibly hard at and just as important
for
college? Now I'm going to say that's a very impressive story, though the bike thing sounds like a rather bad decision especially if it was an open wound (I'm assuming from stitched up), and shouldn't by any means be a standard.
Now would you agree with the idea that, after all the time, energy, and money, that he put into this, that it should become absolutely useless? Regardless of whether or not he'd complain about it, do you think an acceptable outcome of someone who would sooner go to classes than the hospital, is not only not rewarded for that effort, but in fact ends up being penalized from a mounting amount of debt that is extremely difficult to pay at such low wages? That he should have to spend a longer amount of time eating his brothers canned food, or in an attic? Do you think he has the right to want to see some change?
But of course, there's probably some starving child in Africa, and if they're not complaining, why does he have the right to?
I'm sorry, but "Some people have it worse than you" is not an argument against change, but one that shows that it is that much more desperately needed.
Post by
MyTie
Now would you agree with the idea that, after all the time, energy, and money, that he put into this, that it should become absolutely useless? Regardless of whether or not he'd complain about it, do you think an acceptable outcome of someone who would sooner go to classes than the hospital, is not only not rewarded for that effort, but in fact ends up being penalized from a mounting amount of debt that is extremely difficult to pay at such low wages? That he should have to spend a longer amount of time eating his brothers canned food, or in an attic? Do you think he has the right to want to see some change?
But of course, there's probably some starving child in Africa, and if they're not complaining, why does he have the right to?
I'm sorry, but "Some people have it worse than you" is not an argument against change, but one that shows that it is that much more desperately needed.
He deserves a reward from his effort in college. His reward is knowledge. If a company should choose to hire him based on that knowledge, great, if not, then that is unfortunate. Who is to blame if he doesn't get a great paying job? No one. That is the real problem I have with this OWS. They wish to lay blame for something when there is no blame to lay.
Further, the "debt" felt by the US has nothing to do with his education. It is wrong of the US government to put so much debt on him whether he goes to college or not. That, again, has nothing to do with wall st, but has to do with politicians and the voting community, particularly, liberals, whether that be economic liberals or high spending liberal republicans focused on war. Everyone is in such a hurry to spend money to appease the population that the economy is struggling. The fact we still have an economy despite the horrendous spending speaks volumes to the merits of capitalism, not the detriment, and is yet another reason I disagree with the protesters. The protesters should be protesting specific companies, not the system.
Post by
Heckler
He deserves a reward from his effort in college. His reward is knowledge. If a company should choose to hire him based on that knowledge, great, if not, then that is unfortunate. Who is to blame if he doesn't get a great paying job? No one. That is the real problem I have with this OWS. They wish to lay blame for something when there is no blame to lay.
This isn't true, you can find reasons for the economy and the shape it's in. You can find reasons for decline in manufacturing jobs, public sector jobs, social work, etc. All of these things have causes, and it's
ridiculous
to say "No one" is to blame, when its simply not true.
The most common factor I read about is lack of demand, and the housing bubble putting 1 in 4 mortgages underwater can probably be blamed for that. So who's to blame for the housing bubble? Just saying "No one" and moving on is not only shortsighted and wrong, it's dangerous.
Post by
MyTie
He deserves a reward from his effort in college. His reward is knowledge. If a company should choose to hire him based on that knowledge, great, if not, then that is unfortunate. Who is to blame if he doesn't get a great paying job? No one. That is the real problem I have with this OWS. They wish to lay blame for something when there is no blame to lay.
This isn't true, you can find reasons for the economy and the shape it's in. You can find reasons for decline in manufacturing jobs, public sector jobs, social work, etc. All of these things have causes, and it's
ridiculous
to say "No one" is to blame, when its simply not true.
The most common factor I read about is lack of demand, and the housing bubble putting 1 in 4 mortgages underwater can probably be blamed for that. So who's to blame for the housing bubble? Just saying "No one" and moving on is not only shortsighted and wrong, it's dangerous.
On the housing bubble, housing investors, government regulators, as well as mortgage lending banks were to blame. But that isn't the sole reason for the economic situation, and it certainly isn't the direct reason why an individual doesn't have a job. Certainly the jobs market was impacted, but that isn't an end all to the scenario. There is quite a bigger picture here, and if someone doesn't have a job, you can't demand to know the name of the person responsible, because there is no one out there whos responsibility by law is to give that person a job. To say so is not only shortsighted and wrong, it's dangerous.it's dangerousHonestly? Come on, Heckler.
Post by
Orranis
Now would you agree with the idea that, after all the time, energy, and money, that he put into this, that it should become absolutely useless? Regardless of whether or not he'd complain about it, do you think an acceptable outcome of someone who would sooner go to classes than the hospital, is not only not rewarded for that effort, but in fact ends up being penalized from a mounting amount of debt that is extremely difficult to pay at such low wages? That he should have to spend a longer amount of time eating his brothers canned food, or in an attic? Do you think he has the right to want to see some change?
But of course, there's probably some starving child in Africa, and if they're not complaining, why does he have the right to?
I'm sorry, but "Some people have it worse than you" is not an argument against change, but one that shows that it is that much more desperately needed.
He deserves a reward from his effort in college. His reward is knowledge. If a company should choose to hire him based on that knowledge, great, if not, then that is unfortunate. Who is to blame if he doesn't get a great paying job? No one. That is the real problem I have with this OWS. They wish to lay blame for something when there is no blame to lay.
Further, the "debt" felt by the US has nothing to do with his education. It is wrong of the US government to put so much debt on him whether he goes to college or not. That, again, has nothing to do with wall st, but has to do with politicians and the voting community, particularly, liberals, whether that be economic liberals or high spending liberal republicans focused on war. Everyone is in such a hurry to spend money to appease the population that the economy is struggling. The fact we still have an economy despite the horrendous spending speaks volumes to the merits of capitalism, not the detriment, and is yet another reason I disagree with the protesters. The protesters should be protesting specific companies, not the system.
Knowledge is great I agree, but if College were not at all a means to an ends there would be no grading system, or at least 'tests'. You're correct when you say "No one" is to blame, in that their is no singular person you can blame, but you later contradict yourself when you state they should protest specific companies. The point is that no specific person is too blame, but rather the system on a whole. I made no mention of the United States debt, but rather was referring to college loans debt.
Post by
MyTie
Knowledge is great I agree, but if College were not at all a means to an ends there would be no grading system, or at least 'tests'. You're correct when you say "No one" is to blame, in that their is no singular person you can blame, but you later contradict yourself when you state they should protest specific companies. The point is that no specific person is too blame, but rather the system on a whole. I made no mention of the United States debt, but rather was referring to college loans debt.
They should protest specific companies for wrong doing, such as animal abuses. They shouldn't protest specific companies because they are unemployed.
Post by
Heckler
You're acting like when a system acts inappropriately (even if the inappropriate action was democratically decided, or popular at the time), that looking for the cause in order to correct it is useless, because you can't find it.
That's horrendously bad policy, and it
is
extremely dangerous. The system is full of checks and balances, and the voice of the people is the ultimate Check. All of those things you listed as the reason for the housing bubble are perfect example. Who's to say it won't just happen again? It will, unless the things that allowed it to happen are changed -- and if the elected officials won't do it, then the people have a responsibility to. My previous posts have covered a few extremely specific trends in law and taxation which contribute to the issue, and are not widely known. I'd like to think if more people knew about it, then our elections might actually make a difference. OWS is doing an amazing job of spreading awareness and fixing attention on these issues, and that's a good thing.
OWS isn't demanding names of specific persons. And no one is saying that employers should be legally obligated to provide jobs. But to act like its somehow improper for people to identify and act against wrongheaded policy (both public and private) is simply wrong. It is not the duty of the people to simply accept what is done to them and struggle on.
Post by
MyTie
Heckler, capitalism isn't perfect. It is a bumpy road. If someone can suggest something better, I'll be right there next to them. Unfortunately, all our alternatives are a million times worse, so I'm going to stand up FOR capitalism, because it is the only relatively good system available.
As for the current economic system, our government is directly at fault for its overspending. That you CAN blame them for. You cannot blame them for the unemployment situation, because it isn't governments job to hire people. We aren't communist, thank goodness.
And, no, you don't always blame the system for the problem that happens. If someone runs a red light and smashes into me, I don't blame the transportation system, I blame that individual. In this case, there were specific companies that ran some red lights. Blame them for that, but don't blame them for everything, and certainly don't blame the system.
Why is this dangerous? Explain what danger I am presenting, and what dangerous situations arise out of my kind of thinking, or stop the flame throwing.
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