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Post by
Patty
So glad somebody took the bait, I've been wanting to go over this with somebody.
Can you please stop equating suffering from PTSD (at the least, probably along with more
mental %^&*ing disorders
) with being a "pussy"?
Carl should have PTSD since he actually shot his mother in the face after watching his baby sister sliced out of her while she was alive. Andrea saw her sister ripped apart, Carol lived with an abusive husband and saw her reanimated daughter shot in the head. Merle cut off his own hand to escape a group of zombies, it's not mentioned in the show, but Michonne had a son who was eaten alive. Hershelle lost five kids to zombies plus his wife.
Are you #$%^ing kidding me.
Hershel completely gives up on life when he sees his son die in the comics, that being the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak; Carol commits suicide; Andrea was completely depressed and suicidal after losing Amy - also more emotionally vulnerable than her comic counterpart, who recovered comparably quicker; Michonne's coping mechanism included distancing herself from pretty much every person ever; Carl from my understanding turns into a borderline sociopathic trigger-happy creepy child in the comics, so don't imply that all these characters all cope remarkably well. I know some of these are only in comic canon but seeing as you're comparing Rick with his comic counterpart, how about we do the same for others?
Also, the difference with the characters you've listed (with the exception of Carl) is that at the start of this season/arc they all had less hope than Rick did. I think Rick, both versions, had an idealism that came along with Lori's pregnancy. Obviously he was practical, too, worrying about feeding it and such, but he put a lot of hope into it. When Lori dies, that kind of dissolves. Then everything goes to hell. It's a similar trigger that sets off Rick's breakdown in both versions, except in this case it happens a little earlier because, well, Lori dies earlier. It's obviously not the smartest thing to do, but it's not like we're always ruled by our rational sides. With Rick, something had to give.
Furthermore, there is no degree of "so and so should get PTSD because they've been through more!" because it comes as a result of
a failing of coping mechanisms
, not necessarily who has been through the most #$%^; if someone manages to completely cope with that and feel fine, then good for them - but that
doesn't detract from others who can't cope with less
. Can I be any clearer? If you actually applied your logic as presented here to something other than TWD, you'd find a massive failure of it.
I am calling Rick a pussy because he is having a massively over the top breakdown, when the rest of the group needs him, and frankly, what he experienced isn't as bad as what some of the others have, who are handling things better. See above - "massively over the top breakdown" is oxymoronic because the conditions for such a breakdown are different for everybody. The group needs him, you're right. But what is he meant to do? Go to therapy and take some meds until he feels better? That's such an option. You'll also have noticed that in the climax, Rick snaps back to reality incredibly quickly, pulling through for when the group need him. Last episode and most of this, he wasn't all there, you're right, but he's haunted by Lori (and Judith)'s death in the comic books, too. So comparing him to his comic version and calling him weak is an overexaggeration.
He can suffer from PTSD and still not wig out like that, soldiers do it in combat situations all the time. It's not like having a breakdown just flips a switch in somebody brain that makes them go loopy. He's being &*!@ing weak, everybody else in the group is more or less keeping their #$%^ together, he should be too. He had the same break with reality in the comics, and he never let it effect him like this or put everybody in jeopardy. You'll notice in my first post I said that it's likely Rick is suffering from a combination of different illnesses, which I won't try and diagnose because I simply don't know enough about mental health to do so, accounting for the other symptoms that I couldn't match with what I knew of PTSD. As said above, Rick does snap back to reality when he needs to, and not everyone is likely to be handling the whole apocalypse well. Although I agree that he's definitely not fit to be in a position of leadership, I'd say Hershel and Daryl are much more capable at the minute. Or Andrea, whenever she gets her ass to the prison. :P
That mightn't be your intention but it's basically what you're doing, and it's not only offensive as #$%^, but also completely ignorant.
Three things I would like to say about this.
1) Its fictional. Rick is not a real person, so there's nothing offensive about me calling him a pussy. In a real life situation I would never refer to somebody suffering from PTSD like that, but this is a show, its a dramatization. It's the same way that I can like the Governor, when having any sympathy for a person like that in real life would make me a monster.I know that. However, what dramatisations of mental health issues do is, importantly raise awareness of them - because there's still quite a stigma surrounding it. When you call characters suffering from illnesses pussies or whatever else, you're knowingly or not pretty much contributing to the continued alienation of the subject. Even if that's not your intent, that's the message that can come across.
2) I was literally watching this weeks episode with a friend of time who served in Afghanistan as a combat medic. He has actual experience with some of the stuff you were talking about, and served with a friend who almost had a breakdown from PTSD. And he was the one who pointed out even more vocally than me, that Rick was being a whiney little twat.Mhm. I don't see how that's relevant. Because like I said, there are different effects on people depending on them. And as you said yourself, "Rick is not a real person", so it doesn't matter.
3) Don't call me ignorant when you obviously have a very poor understanding of how post traumatic stress disorder works. Why, because your friend who's known people with it is bugged with Rick, too? I don't see how that's relevant. If I said PTSD when I should have said something else, then by all means you're right about that - I'm no expert, but I've been using what I understand of it to form my conclusions. But that doesn't detract from basically what I've been saying above. Also: I wasn't calling you ignorant, I was calling what you were saying ignorant, so don't take it personally.
Also, I'm not looking for an argument, I'm just really getting pissed off at people treating mental health as a joke and an "if people aren't bad ass all the time then they must be pussies" mentality which is really what the tone of what you've written has indicated. Don't get me wrong, this season has had its issues, and whilst I sort of agree with some of what you've said, I can't agree with the vibe I've been getting about this. Hence the wall of text. Thought I'd put that disclaimer there. Just don't forget what this series is about - it's all about humanity coping with the zompocalypse, or not, and that's consistent in both formats.
Post by
Gone
Hershel completely gives up on life when he sees his son die in the comics, that being the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak; Carol commits suicide; Andrea was completely depressed and suicidal after losing Amy - also more emotionally vulnerable than her comic counterpart, who recovered comparably quicker; Michonne's coping mechanism included distancing herself from pretty much every person ever; Carl from my understanding turns into a borderline sociopathic trigger-happy creepy child in the comics, so don't imply that all these characters all cope remarkably well. I know some of these are only in comic canon but seeing as you're comparing Rick with his comic counterpart, how about we do the same for others?
Most of these things are far worse than what Rick has been through so far though, and all of them have handled it much better than he has. The exception I guess being Andrea, although I've said before the writers have shat all over her character, and she was being what I would consider a pussy as well (compared to her comic counterpart).
More importantly, all of these people dealt with their demons when they had to. Michonne hears voices, and actually has conversations with them, but she doesn't run away from these voices and and leave the group short handed when they need her the most. Hershelle only knelt down and gave up, after the prison had already fallen and everybody was running away And Carol was never exactly a rock, the point of her character was that she was unstable.
My biggest problem is that Rick chooses to have his little breakdown when people need him the most. First his daughter needs formula that she may die without, and instead of helping, or checking on how his son is doing, he goes on a self indulgent rampage through the prison. Then the group is trying to fortify the prison in case of an attack, and he's running around the woods looking for his wife. If he's lucid enough to admit to Hershelle that he's seeing things, then he's lucid enough to ignore what he's seeing.
To put it in perspective, Hershelle found two of his daughters decapitated and a few days later he was back stitching up wounds, and showing people how to plant crops. Why?
BECAUSE THEY NEEDED HIM!
See above - "massively over the top breakdown" is oxymoronic because the conditions for such a breakdown are different for everybody. The group needs him, you're right. But what is he meant to do? Go to therapy and take some meds until he feels better? That's such an option. You'll also have noticed that in the climax, Rick snaps back to reality incredibly quickly, pulling through for when the group need him. Last episode and most of this, he wasn't all there, you're right, but he's haunted by Lori (and Judith)'s death in the comic books, too. So comparing him to his comic version and calling him weak is an overexaggeration.
His weakness does not come from the fact that he suffered a breakdown, it comes from his inability to deal with the breakdown. Like I said Michonne hears voices and see's people who aren't there either, she doesn't let it consume her when she's needed.
If you actually applied your logic as presented here to something other than TWD, you'd find a massive failure of it.
I would never apply this logic to a real life situation. this is a tv show, so I will use tv standards.
It's like in those random stories where Batman gets his ass beat by a lucky thug with a crowbar, and I think "wow, what a b****." Obviously I wouldn't apply that logic to a real situation where somebody is beat up by a guy wielding a crowbar, but I hold Batman to higher standards.
In this same way, in a world where people are regularly ripped to shreds and eaten, and most of the cast is able to deal with this reality without turning to jelly, I will come down harder on a character who snaps as bad as Rick has,
and deals with this breakdown the way he has
. Especially if this is a character that is supposed to be more solid and more of a leader than the rest.
I know that. However, what dramatisations of mental health issues do is, importantly raise awareness of them - because there's still quite a stigma surrounding it. When you call characters suffering from illnesses pussies or whatever else, you're knowingly or not pretty much contributing to the continued alienation of the subject. Even if that's not your intent, that's the message that can come across.
You say that tv raises awareness of mental illnesses, I say that it gives a false image of what mental illness is really like. And the one presented in TWD is pretty !@#$ing absurd. That's not how PTSD works at all, and certainly not what most people are reduced to by trauma.
Just don't forget what this series is about - it's all about humanity coping with the zompocalypse, or not, and that's consistent in both formats.
It's also about survival though, not people turning to jelly at the first provocation. One of my favorite moments in the comic was when Rick and Abraham were talking about all the things they had to do to survive, and the people they had to kill. Abraham talks about how with some people, it's like a switch is flipped and all the sudden they turn into a savage. Rick later said that the people who don't have that internal switch wind up as walking corpses.
The story is about people doing what they have to do to survive, even when their family dies, and they lose limbs, and they have to get dirty. Rick, as he is portrayed in the show, might not be a "pussy" like I said, but he isn't the type of "survivor" that he is meant to be.
One other moment I liked was when Andrea found him crying and he said that he's had it building up forever, but he refuses to let Carl or anybody else in the group see him break down. Ricks solidness and leadership is as iconic to him as Michonnes sword is to her, or the crossbow is to Daryl. It's his thing, and that's what irks me the most this plot line that they seem to be *!@#ting all over it.
If this was Daryl, or Hershelle, or anybody else, I wouldn't be calling them a pussy. But Rick being unable to handle something like this is as out of character as Andrea being unable to fire a gun.
Hence the wall of text. Thought I'd put that disclaimer there.
Don't worry about it, I love debating !@#$ like this. like I said, I brought it up hoping to spark a discussion. I hope i didn't come off as hostile.
Post by
Gone
Good episode, that final scene with Andrea was kind of cliche and predictable though, holy @#$% the tv version of her is stupid.
The next episode looks really good.
Post by
Patty
Yeah, like we know that the Governor will have to stick around at least until the end of the season. :/
I liked it, too! Apparently next week we'll see
Morgan returning.
Post by
Trollfucious
Trollfucious ask why do zombies eat everything and expel nothing? Perhaps their condition is a result of devastating constipation.
Post by
Gone
Best episode yet!
Only thing is I would have tied him up and dragged his ass to the prison, or at least taken way more guns.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
tbh so would I if I was in Rick's shoes. I just said that because I thought as the audience, we would get so much more enjoyment out of seeing Morgan go back with them.
I loved the character development in this episode though!
One of my favorite moments in the comics was after the prison arc when everybody gets separated for a bit. Carl is about to get eaten by a zombie when Michonne shows up and kills it (bare in mind, this was when Carl started to shut off from everybody), and he jumps into her arms and gives her a hug and says he's glad she's ok, then she smiles and says shes glad
he's
ok. It's such a rare display of affection from two of the most closed off and damaged characters in the series.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
That was a really &*!@ing good episode! Even the filler is better this season. Next weeks episode is going to be intense, looks like we'll be seeing more of Tyrese.
Post by
Gone
Lol Elhonna predicted the ending back on page 22.
Post by
Patty
Can't Andrea have worn more practical shoes? :p From the sound they were making I don't think you were meant to run in them, honey.
(yes this is liveblogging)
Not any more
Oh god why? I mean I knew it was coming, but still...
I genuinely think that the writers' aim is to break Andrea in almost every possible way - they extended her broken period after Amy, too.
Post by
Gone
This isn't Andrea. This is a dumb, whiney, bimbo wearing Andrea's name, who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a gun in her hand.
Post by
Gone
Damn, Merle went out like a badass. It's too bad, I wanted to see more from him.
That last scene was surprisingly emotional for the show.
Post by
Skreeran
Still am not really watching the series, but I finished a playthrough of the game a bit back. Was really good.
Oh, and it looks like I missed the argument about PTSD. Let me just say, as someone who's father not only has it, but as someone who worked alongside people with it on a regular basis, that it's not really well understood and it affects each individual differently. One person may get crippling symptoms from what seems like a minor event, and another will walk out of a really terrible event and barely show any outward signs. It's not just a simple result of an event, but a compound disorder that can be affected by a large number of different factors, before, during, and after the event.
Post by
Gone
Still am not really watching the series, but I finished a playthrough of the game a bit back. Was really good.
Oh, and it looks like I missed the argument about PTSD. Let me just say, as someone who's father not only has it, but as someone who worked alongside people with it on a regular basis, that it's not really well understood and it affects each individual differently. One person may get crippling symptoms from what seems like a minor event, and another will walk out of a really terrible event and barely show any outward signs. It's not just a simple result of an event, but a compound disorder that can be affected by a large number of different factors, before, during, and after the event.
It's a show though, I would never say that about a person who had PTSD in real life, and I don't think that's what Rick had. Although I don't wanna get back into that, I've had enough drama this week :/
Have you read the comics btw?
Post by
Skreeran
Have you read the comics btw?Nope, not yet at least. I'm not big into comics, generally because they're hard to legally obtain and put a big drain on my wallet. And then there are long running comics, which are just hard to get into period.
Edit: Unless webcomics count, because Homestuck is the greatest thing ever created by humans.
Post by
Gone
I'm not much into comics anymore either, but The Walking Dead comics are really good. I usually just sit and read the collections in Barnse and Noble when I'm cash poor.
Post by
Adamsm
It's only a hundred or so issues at this point Skree; might as well pick them up and read them, same as you used to do for the Warcraft comics.
Post by
Skreeran
It's only a hundred or so issues at this point Skree; might as well pick them up and read them, same as you used to do for the Warcraft comics.I did not buy those... :P
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