This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
The Self Help Protection Guide
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
dslg604t
You spelt (my spell checker is telling me that's not a word?) "shield" as "sheild" under major glyphs.
Also, can you clarify how the major glyphs are divided up? With prime glyphs, you wouldn't have two glyphs from one section, but I see nothing wrong with taking GoDP as well as GoHoSalv (both from "utility"). So yeah, i'm confused. And what's your reasoning that GoDazing is "amazing for heroics". I've never thought of using it outside of PvP. Is the daze that good?
Post by
581897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dumac
Hmm nice guide, will add some things i would like to see in tanking tips.
Avenger shield is a good multi puller for dungeons un glyphed(3 targets). CC target will not get broken unless you target the CC target directly. There is some exception to this. Fear and roots will be hit even if you usually count them as CC target. Sheep can be broken if you cast the shield while the mage cast Sheep(same goes with druid sleep), this is due server will register your shield hitting the target the same time sheep happens. Sheep will not be registered as being sheeped and your shield will believe it is not sheeped and break it(Probarly someone can explain it more fancier but in essence this is that happens).
This one is kinda obvious but may be something people not think about. Divine protection and Lay of hand are linked by a CD(I believe it is still called "forbearance?"), so if you are using DP you cannot use LoH for two minutes, so using DP can be dumb if you know you may get a too huge hit soon. This is ofc situational.
Post by
svirve
I only briefly looked through this but one thing stabbed my eye.
You
listed
the seal of insight glyph. Even if you use seal of insight for some very obscure wicked reason, the glyph gives you 5% more on each WoG, that's about 1000 more. Which is only 0.5% of your total HP. Not to mention that it's every 10 seconds, so it's an additional 100 HPS.
Not worth sacrificing 20% of your damage for.
Nothing personal but, this is far from finished. There are more unfinished sections than finished ones.
Judging from experience, I won't sticky this until it gets closer to being a finished product.
As always wowhead moderators beats me in hierarchy so my word isn't final.
Otherwise it looks good so far, and I wish you luck and hope you get around to finishing it!
Post by
hatman555
You spelt (my spell checker is telling me that's not a word?) "shield" as "sheild" under major glyphs. This was addressed by pelf. If you see any other mentions of it please let me know. Thanks
Also, can you clarify how the major glyphs are divided up? With prime glyphs, you wouldn't have two glyphs from one section, but I see nothing wrong with taking GoDP as well as GoHoSalv (both from "utility"). So yeah, i'm confused. Maybe I could be a little more descriptive to clarify this, but if you look at the 3rd box, there is a slot for utility down there too. I will add another slot for utility in the shield section, and add a line about how to mix and match for utility in the description section.
And what's your reasoning that GoDazing is "amazing for heroics". I've never thought of using it outside of PvP. Is the daze that good?
"You can't do that while dazed"
totally awesome for heroics, as it means you get a break from some mobs punching you in the face for a little while. Or if you're having to kite something, they get slowed down, letting you get a bit of a lead on them.
This is exactly why, and this is the sort of thing i will be addressing in the tanking tips section.
Avenger shield is a good multi puller for dungeons un glyphed(3 targets). CC target will not get broken unless you target the CC target directly. There is some exception to this. Fear and roots will be hit even if you usually count them as CC target. Sheep can be broken if you cast the shield while the mage cast Sheep(same goes with druid sleep), this is due server will register your shield hitting the target the same time sheep happens. Sheep will not be registered as being sheeped and your shield will believe it is not sheeped and break it(Probarly someone can explain it more fancier but in essence this is that happens). There will definatly be a whole section about Averger shield. Its one of my favorit abilities as a paladin tank, and can definatly do some interesting things.
This one is kinda obvious but may be something people not think about. Divine protection and Lay of hand are linked by a CD(I believe it is still called "forbearance?"), so if you are using DP you cannot use LoH for two minutes, so using DP can be dumb if you know you may get a too huge hit soon. This is ofc situational.
Not as obvious as you may think. Which is why i will be talking about this in the CD section, as well as in the tanking tips section. Forbearance is only trigged by HoP, LoH, and Divine shield, not Divine Protection. Also, Forbearance is now only 1 minute, not 2 minutes. So i will be addressing this.
I only briefly looked through this but one thing stabbed my eye.
You
listed
the seal of insight glyph. Even if you use seal of insight for some very obscure wicked reason, the glyph gives you 5% more on each WoG, that's about 1000 more. Which is only 0.5% of your total HP. Not to mention that it's every 10 seconds, so it's an additional 100 HPS.
Not worth sacrificing 20% of your damage for.
Just because you have Seal of insight as a glyph doesn't mean you need to use Seal of insight for 100% of the fight. Pretty much any boss where your not going to need threat after 60 seconds of fighting, seal of insight is more beneficial than seal of truth. While ODS, Magmaw, Chimaeron, Maloriak, and Cho'gall, come to mind, the best example for this is Nefarian. If you are the Onyxia tank, you only need threat for the first 60 seconds of the fight. Use Seal of truth, and dump all your HP's into Shield slam. Once your threat is 300K (omen) over everyone else, switch to seal of insight, and start dumping all your HP's into WoG. You lose some of the damage, but tanks aren't meant for damage, they are meant for survivability. In phase 2 again, more healing is better than more damage on the adds that mean nothing. Phase 3, you taunt the Nefarian and since there is no aggro reset, you now have the 6 million or more threat that the other tank left you with. Its at this point that I even turn Rightous fury off, because with seal of insight active and using WoG 100% of the time, i pull more threat than any other healer on the field, and the respawning skeleton adds pop up and run to me, which is bad. Turning RF off solves this problem.
Its pretty far from "obscure" in its uses. But again, its listed second, its not to be used in 5 mans and its more of a tank and spank tool.
Nothing personal but, this is far from finished. There are more unfinished sections than finished ones.
Judging from experience, I won't sticky this until it gets closer to being a finished product.
As always wowhead moderators beats me in hierarchy so my word isn't final.
Defiantly agree with you on this, i have not reported it to be sticked, and won't until it is completed.
Otherwise it looks good so far, and I wish you luck and hope you get around to finishing it!
Thanks
Sorry for walls of text and quote spamming. I just wanted to make sure i address everyones points. Thanks again for taking the time to read all of this!
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
svirve
Using it for remote portions of a fight is insane as I clearly demonstrated.
Using SoV for the 20% (that's much FYI) damage increase, is most probably going to shave off enough time of the fight to reduce the amount of damage you take by an amount way larger than that extra 100 HPS you get from SoI.
I'm not questioning the use of WoG, I'm questioning the use of a healing glyph and seal which are only going to help your healers by such a minute amount that they won't notice if you do it or don't.
Saying tanks are not meant to do damage is quite wrong, that's suggesting that tanks don't need to do damage they could just have a button that increased threat by 10k each second.
When measuring how much effective DPS you need in order to clear an enrage timer, tanks are taken into account. When wiping on <5% having your tank do 20% less damage is bad.
Using WoG is awesome, using SoI to boost its healing by 5%, not so awesome.
Post by
hatman555
Using it for remote portions of a fight is insane as I clearly demonstrated.
Using SoV for the 20% (that's much FYI) damage increase, is most probably going to shave off enough time of the fight to reduce the amount of damage you take by an amount way larger than that extra 100 HPS you get from SoI. 20% on a high day. I was looking over my logs and the on a Cho'gall fight where 100% of the time I am attacking the boss, Its only 17.8% of my damage. I did 9.6K damage on that fight. So taking off seal of truth would lead to losing 1708.8 DPS which lead to losing 688,647 damage. Cho'gall is a 80% float fight and a 20% burn, so if we wiped with 137k left to go and I had been using seal of insight, then it might be to blame. That is normal tho, when we will be putting attempts into heroic cho'gall, we are going to be using 1 less healer, and trading them for 1 more DPS. Then the healing that I can do on myself will be way more valuable than the damage I would lose. 5% increase might be worth it then.
Saying tanks are not meant to do damage is quite wrong, that's suggesting that tanks don't need to do damage they could just have a button that increased threat by 10k each second.
When measuring how much effective DPS you need in order to clear an enrage timer, tanks are taken into account. When wiping on <5% having your tank do 20% less damage is bad. Tanks damage is considered when calculated how much DPS you need to clear a enrage timer, but it is taken a low ball estimate at best. Tanks aren't meant to be a source of fight changing DPS and there is a disparity in tank damage right now.
Here is a damage log
of a 25 man Heroic Halfus attempt from last night. The warrior tank "spanke" is 8th on damage. The DK tank "Frostybbq" is 15th, I am 17th and the druid tank "Nabuco" is 18th. Spanke and I are equally geared, with Frosty and Nab being slightly under us. I use 37 WoG in the fight. If I had taken those WoG and put them 100% in Shield slams I would have only done 1.3 Million more damage, raising my DPS for the fight from 28K to 31K. Spanke is at 45.8K
Tank damage is not as important as survivability. Having a tank be able to heal himself when the healers are pressed for a GCD is useful. Using Seal of insight saved me countless times on Heroic Maloriak and heroic Chimaeron. Why not have the extra 5% healing on my WoG while I'm using that seal for 75-85% + of the fight.
Using WoG is awesome, using SoI to boost its healing by 5%, not so awesome.Using WoG is awesome, using SoI to boost its healing by 5%, is not amazing, but also not a mistake. Its a minimum gain for some purposes. And its going to have even less value when WoG gets its 20second CD. But it still has value to be mentioned. I didn't write up the glyph section to scream, "This is a must for all bosses in raids"
Cheers
Hat
Post by
542679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
! ! Stats and Gear section is updated and linked ! !
Let the heated debate about my Stat Weights table begin! >_<
Oooo, pretty tables. Looking good hatman.
Thanks!
As for the SoI glyph debate, I personally wouldn't use it, but Svirve, if hatman thinks it's better for him on certain fights, than so be it. You don't have to play his toon for him. :P
I like the debate, it makes me take a closer look at the numbers and situations. I defiantly am sticking with it being listed as a tanking glyph. And I'm condensing my argument to:
"just because you have seal of light glyph-ed doesn't mean you need to use seal of light 100% of the fight, also seal of light itself provides very useful self heals in some fights, and having it glyph-ed is a bonus since you will be using seal of light anyways."
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
776867
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
As for the SoI glyph debate, I personally wouldn't use it, but Svirve, if hatman thinks it's better for him on certain fights, than so be it. You don't have to play his toon for him. :P
No, but posting a guide that, if finished, is going to be stickied on one of the (if not the) largest wow communities telling people it's generally accepted to be bad, I am going to argue against it.
Hatman, don't lead the discussion towards me saying WoG is bad, you do it continually.
To be clear, once again, I support the use of WoG when tanking, I do it myself regularly. It is the idea of using SoI when tanking that's the problem, and even worse glyphing for it.
20% on a high day. I was looking over my logs and the on a Cho'gall fight where 100% of the time I am attacking the boss, Its only 17.8% of my damage. I did 9.6K damage on that fight. So taking off seal of truth would lead to losing 1708.8 DPS which lead to losing 688,647 damage. Cho'gall is a 80% float fight and a 20% burn, so if we wiped with 137k left to go and I had been using seal of insight, then it might be to blame. That is normal tho, when we will be putting attempts into heroic cho'gall, we are going to be using 1 less healer, and trading them for 1 more DPS. Then the healing that I can do on myself will be way more valuable than the damage I would lose. 5% increase might be worth it then.
20% would be on average, 17.8% ain't far away from that either.
So you're saying it's acceptable to lose 1700 DPS from a tank in order to gain 100 more HPS? So I presume you don't expect your DPS to gem/enchant their gear then?
Once again I'm not saying it's bad to use WoG.
Tanks damage is considered when calculated how much DPS you need to clear a enrage timer, but it is taken a low ball estimate at best. Tanks aren't meant to be a source of fight changing DPS and there is a disparity in tank damage right now. Here is a damage log of a 25 man Heroic Halfus attempt from last night. The warrior tank "spanke" is 8th on damage. The DK tank "Frostybbq" is 15th, I am 17th and the druid tank "Nabuco" is 18th. Spanke and I are equally geared, with Frosty and Nab being slightly under us. I use 37 WoG in the fight. If I had taken those WoG and put them 100% in Shield slams I would have only done 1.3 Million more damage, raising my DPS for the fight from 28K to 31K. Spanke is at 45.8K
Tank damage is not as important as survivability. Having a tank be able to heal himself when the healers are pressed for a GCD is useful. Using Seal of insight saved me countless times on Heroic Maloriak and heroic Chimaeron. Why not have the extra 5% healing on my WoG while I'm using that seal for 75-85% + of the fight.
Tanks in general do about 66% the damage of a regular DPS, on AoE fights they even do more damage than most DPS. How you can find that negligible and talk about doing heroic Cho'gall is a mystery to me.
Heroic Halfus is a horrible example and I hope you do realize why.
And using SoI during those
25*
WoGs gave you about 20k more healing (that's using the average from your log), that's roughly 10% of your total HP, over the entire encounter! It's not even enough to shave off a tic of furious roar.
Of course not, there's a reason we don't enchant hit and gem expertise.
Once again, I'm not saying you shouldn't use WoG.
So you're saying that you've been left with <1000 HP on chimaeron and maloriak several times? Recruit new healers.
Using WoG is awesome, using SoI to boost its healing by 5%, is not amazing, but also not a mistake. Its a minimum gain for some purposes. And its going to have even less value when WoG gets its 20second CD. But it still has value to be mentioned. I didn't write up the glyph section to scream, "This is a must for all bosses in raids"
Sure I'll agree, it's not a mistake if you never intend to raid heroics. It's also not a mistake if you don't intend to gem/enchant your gear. It's not a mistake if you just want to be another PuG tank. It's not a mistake if you're casual and don't have enough time to raid progression. It's not a mistake if you don't min/max. It's not a mistake if you don't want to play your character to its best.
Using SoI is plain bad. You do it as much as you ever want, recommending others to do it however, is in my eyes, plain rude.
Post by
776867
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
all he's doing is demonstrating that it DOES have some usefulness. when i have a stupid amount of threat over the dps in my group/raid, then why wouldnt i relieve that much stress on the healers?
dps is not a tanks job. does the tank contribute? yes. but when you sacrifice mitigation (even if its a tiny amount of healing) for dps, youre not playing optimally for your role. are there times when you need to do more dps? undoubtedly, thats why you carry dust to switch out glyphs. every fight is situational, especially when youre doing progression and it never hurts to expose options like this in guides.
I don't know where you live but where I live, an increase of 0.6% HPS to a tank, is not much.
Remember this is a maximum and is based on actually using WoG as much as possible. Not like gems and enchant which actually make a constant difference.
DPS is not a tanks job, but doing DPS shaves time off a fight which means healers need less longevity, which means they get more HPS. Which in turn is going to heal you for more than your 5% extra on WoG every 10 seconds.
Doing your role optimally doesn't only mean maximizing yourself, but also maximizing your groups potential.
Post by
776867
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
I'm not going to bother anymore, obviously nothing I say is going to educate you in any way.
I however would like to see any respectable source recommending the use of either SoI or the glyph when tanking.
Post by
hatman555
As for the SoI glyph debate, I personally wouldn't use it, but Svirve, if hatman thinks it's better for him on certain fights, than so be it. You don't have to play his toon for him. :P
No, but posting a guide that, if finished, is going to be stickied on one of the (if not the) largest wow communities telling people it's generally accepted to be bad, I am going to argue against it.
You are right to debate me, you are starting to come off a bit aggressive. My guide is not done yet, but so far I don't see how I'm "telling people its generally accepted to be bad" I am taking my experience in tanking and putting it down on paper. My math is basic at best and not tested in triplicate, but what I do have are accurate observations that lead to success.
Hatman, don't lead the discussion towards me saying WoG is bad, you do it continually.
To be clear, once again, I support the use of WoG when tanking, I do it myself regularly. It is the idea of using SoI when tanking that's the problem, and even worse glyphing for it.
I think I only lead it towards that because indirectly that is where you are making it lead. Using WoG is a choice, Just like using SoL and SoT. One is DPS and one is more healing. You are trading a 32K SotR for a 20K WoG. Thats a DPS loss. Sure its not as much of a DPS trade as SoT for SoL, but then again, its not as much as you are making it out to be. In all of this your forgeting about the 1000-1500 HPS you get from SoL itself. So its 20% of your damage for a 1600 HPS increase.
The mark of a good tank is knowing all the skills he has at his disposal. This is why we had block sets for TotGC. This is why we have Fire, Frost, and Shadow resist sets in our banks. This is why we carry 5 different tanking trinkets in our bags. This is why I list Seal of Insight as a possible tanking glyph in the seal section. There is a time and a place to use everything. When Heroic Maloriak comes around, I'm going to be using SoL for the entire fight, because my damage means nothing, but if i die, in a black phase because of black puddle RNG and i didn't have that extra 5K life, its a wipe. We trade damage for survivability every day, this is just another way to do it.
So you're saying it's acceptable to lose 1700 DPS from a tank in order to gain 100 more HPS? So I presume you don't expect your DPS to gem/enchant their gear then?
Once again I'm not saying it's bad to use WoG. 1.) Like i said above, if we are staying with you 1700 DPS number, you can stay with my 1600 HPS number.
2.) Why type of argument is that? You innately think my theory is stupid, so you give an example of stupidity to challenge it?
3.) During progression on Heroic Sindragosa it was often asked that each DPS use 2 pieces of ilevel 200 gear with frost resist to make it easier on the healers. Thats trading DPS for HPS savings.
Heroic Halfus is a horrible example and I hope you do realize why.
Its a mediocre example at best your right. Warriors and DKs have more advantage because their AOE DPS is better than that of a Paladin or a druid, so they get super buffed off the whelps just like the mages and locks. BUT its still the truth, warriors out DPS paladins in every fight even if a paladin does use SoT and 3HP SoTR.
And using SoI during those
25*
WoGs gave you about 20k more healing (that's using the average from your log), that's roughly 10% of your total HP, over the entire encounter! It's not even enough to shave off a tic of furious roar.Or 1500HPS from SoL for a 5 minute fight, thats 450,000 health which is more like 2 whole furious roars and a tic off the third.
Of course not, there's a reason we don't enchant hit and gem expertise.
Once again, I'm not saying you shouldn't use WoG.
Yup, just like I'm saying that sometimes we do gem and gear for hit. If its needed to kill a fight, its needed.
So you're saying that you've been left with <1000 HP on chimaeron and maloriak several times? Recruit new healers.
Heroic
Chimaeron and
Heroic
Maloriak, and yes we are trying to recruit new healers, but damn if we all didn't just have the best healers and the best DPS in the world, then we could do anything as tank couldn't we? This is why I list SoL as a choice, because if you need it to help your healers until you replace them with better ones, you should use it!
Sure I'll agree, it's not a mistake if you never intend to raid heroics. It's also
not a mistake
if you
don't intend to gem/enchant your gear
. It's
not a mistake
if you
just want to be another PuG tank
. It's
not a mistake
if
you're casual and don't have enough time to raid progression
. It's
not a mistake
if
you don't min/max.
It's
not a mistake
if you
don't want to play your character to its best.
Using SoI is plain bad. You do it as much as you ever want, recommending others to do it however, is in my eyes, plain rude.Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person being "plain rude" is you. Really dude, does thinking outside the box threaten you so much that you have to come down on a suggesting that hard?
Cheers,
Hat
p.s. Healers that are interesting in recruiting to Aftermath should talk to me or another officer of the guild on US-Dalaran.
sorry another small edit
No, but posting a guide that, if finished, is going to be stickied on one of the (if not the) largest wow communities telling people it's generally accepted to be bad, I am going to argue against it. Just stopped by
Elitist Jerks
another very large wow community, with much better math than me.
Glyph of Seal of Insight (Survivability, Optional) - It's entirely possible to run Seal of Insight while tanking current raid content, and may be worth doing once a healthy threat lead is established. If you're chain-casting WoG on yourself, this glyph will give you a survivability increase. Note that this glyph does not affect Seal of Insight itself (or other proc-based effects), only heals that you actively cast like WoG or Holy Radiance. Thus, the net effect of this this glyph is about half that of the WoG glyph.
Post by
776867
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
just had a thought when reading the quote from EJ. occasionally, ill use holy radiance as a threat-gain/oh $%^& button. youre wasting a GCD, but if youre at the point that you have to use it, you shouldnt miss that one filler. just an idea for tanking tips ^^
Honestly if use used it right before adds spawned you wouldn't be wasting the GCD, and you would be adding 8 to 9 seconds of healing threat on your table while you did everything else. Would be even more effective in a 25 man raid too.
I like your thinking Karath! Very outside the box.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
776867
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
346977
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.