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Why no undead pallys?
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Post by
Eudemonia
Give me your source for Arthas being "a Dark God."
Fine, essentially a Dark God, (also said to be one of the most powerful beings the world has ever known in the WoW manual iirc).
Uh, "unable to channel" and "able to channel" are kinda mutually exclusive... but you're taking baby steps, it's all good.
Or are you saying that your original statement that "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off (at least psychologically, if not physically)" should be interpreted to mean;
'Undead can channel Holy magic without any in-game consequences whatsoever, and do so flagrantly'. Was that what you meant?
That's okay, at least we've moved you from "Undead... wouldn't be able to channel holy magic..." to "Yes, they can channel". Progress!
I really don't see what you are trying to argue here. I already said earlier that I was wrong, it was my bad that I said Forsaken couldn't channel the Light. However, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. I said, in lore, Forsaken priests cannot channel the Light without being burned and cauterized, while you keep arguing that there are no effects in game.
Game mechanics =/= lore. A blue post saying that Forsaken are burned and cauterized whenever they cast/have Light cast upon them trumps game balance.
Forsaken priest are all, lore wise, Shadow priests.
That's what they are. So Blizzard gave them the priest class because it is an essential part of their culture. However, they aren't holy priests (except in rare cases). They get Holy as an option because Blizzard wouldn't just limit Forsaken priests to being Shadow only.
You realize the very blue post you quoted earlier contradicts this statement, right?
For the undead (and Forsaken),
this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare
, especially since it is self-destructive. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus,
Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower
; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.
These Forsaken priests of "unwavering willpower" are the holy priests. I.e., the PCs. Or, put another way, conta "blue post saying that Forsaken are burned and cauterized whenever they cast/have Light cast upon them trumps game balance", that Blue post actually definitively establishes how Forsaken are able to channel the Light in lore.
Just to be clear, we've now gone from "Basically, everyone who knows anything about WoW lore agrees that Forsaken cannot be paladins." To "Yes, they can channel ."
We've also further agreed that there exists at least one undead Paladin.
So, if the developers wish to introduce forsaken paladins, all that they need to do is note that said paladins "are beings of unwavering willpower".
I gotta be honest here, I'm really not seeing the barrier to Forsaken paladins; if the developers decided to introduce them, these paladins don't contradict any established lore that wasn't already contradicted with the introduction of Forsaken holy priests. In other words, Forsaken paladins would be in keeping with the cosmology of the game since day one.
So, the ultimate answer to the Original Poster's question of "Why no undead pallys?", the answer is
a) There is at least one uncontested undead paladin, and
b) People haven't indicated to Blizzard sufficiently that they want them.
If enough people want Forsaken paladins, we'll get them "Soon".
Post by
Monday
However, they aren't holy priests (
except in rare cases
)
l2read. Yes, rude, but true.
These Forsaken priests of "unwavering willpower" are the holy priests. I.e., the PCs. Or, put another way, conta "blue post saying that Forsaken are burned and cauterized whenever they cast/have Light cast upon them trumps game balance", that Blue post actually definitively establishes how Forsaken are able to channel the Light in lore.
You forgot to add "These 'exceedingly rare' priests of 'unwavering willpower'". Sure, they can channel the Light. But it causes horrible pain. Would you want to be a Holy Priest if you were burned whenever you even cast a minor heal?
Holy priests are incredibly rare. And, in the end, Paladins were made to kill undead. An undead, undead killer... what?
In the end, yes it is the developers choice whether they want to bring in Forsaken Paladins. If they do however, it will be an extremely stupid arse pull.
Also, to clarify and earlier point: The whole, Thrall Paladin thing. I was using it as an example of the ridiculousness of your claim that Leonid is a paladin. There is never a shred of evidence pointing him to be a Paladin. Where I think that idea is coming from is the fact that he's a member of the Argent Dawn. The Argent Dawn is
not
a paladin organization. In fact, most paladins of the undead fighting group left the Argent Dawn and became... the Scarlet Crusade.
Post by
Synectics
The only problem I have with this whole thing is my view of what a "paladin" is. To me (and this might be because I'm an old-fashioned nerd not exclusive to WoW), a Paladin is someone who trains themselves to follow their deity / god, and carry on their word, smiting and destroying "evil" wherever it may be.
It's never been a matter of what "race" a Paladin is. The term "Paladin" really just means a knight who believes deeply in his deity.
But like I said, that's my outside perspective. In terms of WoW, I understand the Paladin has a natural and innate ability to wield "holy light." However, what would happen if they did evil with this holy light? Would it be pulled away from them by their deity? Or is it more about the fact that they naturally have this power, and can use it as they wish? Using Wowwiki as a source, since I'm not a pro with WoW lore:
Paladins are the embodiment of good and selfless dedication to the protection of their peoples. They help the innocent and punish the wicked. As such, paladins are generally of good alignment.
There are however, also evil Paladins such as those in the Scarlet Crusade.
What is to say that the Forsaken are even "evil?" Who is to say that a human, killed and turned undead against their will, couldn't train themselves to defend their people, worship a holy deity, and be rewarded with the power of the light?
Again, I'm just offering my outside perspective -- feel free to tear it apart, lol, as again, I'm no WoW lore pro. Just offering some devil's advocate stuff.
EDIT: Read further down Wowwiki and answered some of my own hypotheticals:
A paladin must be good and will lose all Light-given abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act.
Paladins don't always have to work within good or neutral organizations as seen by the Scarlet Crusade and others — however, they do have to believe they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just. A paladin can be evil (as illustrated by Renault Mograine and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne, but his holy powers did start to weaken after he culled Stratholme; the further down the dark path he went, the more they faded until eventually left him), but as long as they believe their cause to be just, the Light will continue to serve them.
Post by
Monday
What is to say that the Forsaken are even "evil?"
The RPG book =P
/sigh. I hope they don't happen eventually, but it probably will.
I'm done debating. I'm heading to bed, and I just don't really have the will to argue the point anymore =P
Post by
blademeld
You forgot to add "These 'exceedingly rare' priests of 'unwavering willpower'". Sure, they can channel the Light. But it causes horrible pain. Would you want to be a Holy Priest if you were burned whenever you even cast a minor heal?
Holy priests are incredibly rare. And, in the end, Paladins were made to kill undead. An undead, undead killer... what?
In the end, yes it is the developers choice whether they want to bring in Forsaken Paladins. If they do however, it will be an extremely stupid arse pull.
Whether the developer's decision is stupid or not is the opinion of every individual, no?
I personally think BE paladins, UD priests, gnome warriors (<3 anyways), et al. are
stupid
.
Post by
Eudemonia
However, they aren't holy priests (
except in rare cases
)
l2read. Yes, rude, but true.
Aww, does baby need a nappy?
Seriously man, virtually every part of your argument is unsupported assertion; when the statements put out by the blues contradict your preferred viewpoint, you ignore them. When logic contradicts you, you ignore it.
Also, seriously, "l2read"? I found the original citation, I specifically highlight the point you then emphasis, and your retort is "l2read"?
Your argumentative style resembles nothing so much as a child's tantrum, with fingers firmly stuck into the ears and lungs fully deployed.
These Forsaken priests of "unwavering willpower" are the holy priests. I.e., the PCs. Or, put another way, conta "blue post saying that Forsaken are burned and cauterized whenever they cast/have Light cast upon them trumps game balance", that Blue post actually definitively establishes how Forsaken are able to channel the Light in lore.
You forgot to add "These 'exceedingly rare' priests of 'unwavering willpower'". Sure, they can channel the Light. But it causes horrible pain. Would you want to be a Holy Priest if you were burned whenever you even cast a minor heal?
And yet, they do, and having already pointed out that "the players are
all unique, exceptional individuals
", how exactly does this in any way, at all, impact on the case that I have made?
Holy priests are incredibly rare. And, in the end, Paladins were made to kill undead. An undead, undead killer... what?
"What better vessel to smite the heathens of the Scourge than through the undead?"
Hmm, what indeed...
In the end, yes it is the developers choice whether they want to bring in Forsaken Paladins. If they do however, it will be an extremely stupid arse pull.
Again, why? What part of the assertions I have made and backed up with citation to published lore, would be contradicted?
It's been established that a) Forsaken can channel the holy light, and b) that undead can be paladins.
The only arse that seems to be getting pulled here is you.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
On that subject, I never really got troll holy priests and NE shadow priests either :P
Post by
Eudemonia
You forgot to add "These 'exceedingly rare' priests of 'unwavering willpower'". Sure, they can channel the Light. But it causes horrible pain. Would you want to be a Holy Priest if you were burned whenever you even cast a minor heal?
Holy priests are incredibly rare. And, in the end, Paladins were made to kill undead. An undead, undead killer... what?
In the end, yes it is the developers choice whether they want to bring in Forsaken Paladins. If they do however, it will be an extremely stupid arse pull.
Whether the developer's decision is stupid or not is the opinion of every individual, no?
I personally think BE paladins, UD priests, gnome warriors (<3 anyways), et al. are
stupid
.
UD shadow priests make sense.
UD holy and disc priests don't make sense, but must be included to allow for shadow priests.
Forgetting, for the moment, that a post from developers has been quoted several times in this thread explaining why Holy priests make "sense" lore-wise, what in the world would disqualify Forsaken from being Disc priests?
Is there some nuance to Discipline I've missed?
By the by, the quote provided by Synectics seems to rather nicely answer any of these questsions (as if they needed further flogging);
Paladins don't always have to work within good or neutral organizations as seen by the Scarlet Crusade and others — however,
they do have to believe
they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just.
A paladin can be evil (as illustrated by Renault Mograine and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne, but his holy powers did start to weaken after he culled Stratholme; the further down the dark path he went, the more they faded until eventually left him), but
as long as they believe their cause to be just, the Light will continue to serve them.
Each of the factions, and each of the races within those factions, believes that they walk the path of the just. If self-delusion allows the paladins in the Scarlet Monastery to walk everyday by their abbatior and their gibbets, then belief in your own cause must truly trump everything.
In all honesty, barring those who are arguing because they "really, really hate the idea of Forsaken Paladins/Holy Priests", there doesn't really seem to be a lot of cogent opposition to the idea that Forsaken paladins (with whatever meaningless codicil to rarity is felt necessary) could be implemented without any real alteration to the game lore.
Except, of course, some cursory introductory quests in the starting zone.
The following is not in doubt;
1) Forsaken can
channel the holy light
, and
2) A Paladin can be
undead
(and a member of the scourge!) and
maintain the power to wield the Holy Light.
Having overcome these two barriers, what in the lore represents an insuperable obstacle to Forsaken paladins? That they would be very rare? Irrelevant, as in WoW, every Draenei (every alliance actually) can be the
Promised One
of legend, everyone can have brought the head of Nefarian to
Overlord Sourfang
, or be the
Scarab Lord
.
Now, if you just don't like 'em... well, we can't argue with that. Because it's, you know, not actually an argument.
Post by
Eudemonia
As I was in the loo, the most interesting part of this debate occured to me; just how wrongheaded the "no paladins" side becomes, when we stop looking for what is
in
the lore, as opposed to what the lore
is
.
What is the Holy Light, after all? Uther (in
Arthas: Rise of the Lich King
) describes it thus; "No one feels he deserves it... its grace, pure and simple... but the Light loves us anyway."
In a nutshell, the Light is what the developers use instead of saying "God", for the obvious reason that actually saying "but God loves us anyway" would... well, it'd be a no-no for reasons outside of this discussion.
So, the Light is forgiveness, mercy and justice; its followers preach and practice self-sacrifice and redemption in the extreme. The most obvious example of extreme self-sacrifice being that of
Mu'ru
, who (contrary to earlier posters), acquiesces to his imprisonment and ultimately his near complete annihilation by the Blood elves in order to lead them to "redemption" and back to the Light.
So, given that kind of attitude, and what the Light represents, doesn't it seem, well, silly, to imagine that the biology of the Forsaken is an insuperable barrier to "grace, pure and simple"?
It's like saying "God loves everyone... except Samoans and Ukrainians. They're right out."
Normally, a problem being overcome by a deus-ex-machina is a cop-out... but not when the entity involved is
God itself
(Warcraft version).
I suppose that is the ultimate argument.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
Two pages filled with ramblings of a person that has enough wits to type long longsome posts, but not enough wits to grasp basic logical concepts, such as "every rule has an exception".
Sir Zeliek is an exception to the rule. He is a unique, one of a kind individual, surrounded with lore about his faith.
Saying that all forsaken should be able to be paladins in undeath because of Sir Zeliek is like saying that (a Real World comparison, not talking about in game humans) all humans should be able to be paladins in undeath because Jesus could be a paladin even when he was undead.
edit: Undead paladins are a crazy concept. It is like snow elementals becoming pyromancers.
Post by
Varaconn
You can also look at it from the practical side too. Think for a second about a Forsaken Shadow Priest who decides to exert extreme discipline and faith to be able to channel the Holy Light. We know this burns them.
So it all comes down to...why? Why would an undead "heal" with Holy power when not only would it hurt him/her, but also hurt the Forsaken comrade that they are healing? Use it offensively? Surely the creators of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow can inflict more devastation with their shadow magic than with the Holy Light that damages them as much as it damages the enemy.
You can argue about semantics within exceptions or the possibility of them becoming priests in the first place, but don't ever discuss why a Forsaken would bother with it to begin with.
Post by
blademeld
Saying that all forsaken should be able to be paladins in undeath because of Sir Zeliek is like saying that (a Real World comparison, not talking about in game humans) all humans should be able to be paladins in undeath because Jesus could be a paladin even when he was undead.
Having overcome these two barriers, what in the lore represents an insuperable obstacle to Forsaken paladins? That they would be very rare? Irrelevant, as in WoW, every Draenei (every alliance actually) can be the
Promised One
of legend, everyone can have brought the head of Nefarian to
Overlord Sourfang
, or be the
Scarab Lord
.
Now, if you just don't like 'em... well, we can't argue with that. Because it's, you know, not actually an argument.
Post by
Synectics
So it all comes down to...why? Why would an undead "heal" with Holy power when not only would it hurt him/her, but also hurt the Forsaken comrade that they are healing?
One word:
Chakra
. Cool mechanic for healing, or coolest?
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Aww, does baby need a nappy?
Seriously man, virtually every part of your argument is unsupported assertion; when the statements put out by the blues contradict your preferred viewpoint, you ignore them. When logic contradicts you, you ignore it.
Also, seriously, "l2read"? I found the original citation, I specifically highlight the point you then emphasis, and your retort is "l2read"?
Your argumentative style resembles nothing so much as a child's tantrum, with fingers firmly stuck into the ears and lungs fully deployed.
*whoosh*
I said, in my post, that Forsaken cannot be Holy priests
except in extremely rare cases
. What did you do? You took the part where I said that they couldn't be priests, and ignored the rest where I said
except in extremely rare cases
, which is exactly what the dev said.
So what did you do? I told you to learn to read, because you completely ignored part of my post completing my stance, and made a strawman.
And then you called me a child when I told you to read all of my post...
Post by
blademeld
It also would create some great elements for story/drama going forward for the Forsaken, which I think is needed.
Off-topic, but I totally agree on this point, there's not been one redeeming feature about Forsaken for me.
Post by
Monday
It also would create some great elements for story/drama going forward for the Forsaken, which I think is needed.
Off-topic, but I totally agree on this point, there's not been one redeeming feature about Forsaken for me.
It would. Blizzard has shoehorned the Forsaken into the "bad guy" role, especially with Wrathgate and certain things that happen in Cata. It would be nice to see some depth to the Forsaken again.
Post by
pezz
Part of the problem is Sylvanas's new voice.
WCIII = awesome. If she was doing the
exact same
crap in cata but with that voice I'd be all 'oh hell yeah Forsaken all the way.' But now that she sounds so whiny she's kind of a
douc
feminine hygiene product. Faction transferring to Horde and listening to her in the 3.3 heroics almost made me rage quit before I finished them.
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