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Why no undead pallys?
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Post by
gunpiranha
Was sitting at work thinking today why the taurin get pallys, but the undead who have been fighting the scarlet crusade which acts as mostly paladins have not been able to turn them. Im sure that more then one pally has fallen in the fight and been reborn as undead. You would would think that they would retain some memory of what they had learned before they died.
Post by
lockbox
Paladins are the virtuous defenders of the weak and tireless, unfaltering enemies of the undead.
That's why.
Post by
Monday
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=149115
E: Basically, everyone who knows anything about WoW lore agrees that Forsaken cannot be paladins.
E2: Also, Paladins didn't just turn into ordinary undead. Any paladin who became Scourge (prior to Wrath), became a Death Knight.
Post by
gunpiranha
hmm next time, gotta do alot more research on my own so i dont get curbstomped lol
Post by
Monday
I'm just obsessed >.>
Post by
Eudemonia
Was sitting at work thinking today why the taurin get pallys, but the undead who have been fighting the scarlet crusade which acts as mostly paladins have not been able to turn them. Im sure that more then one pally has fallen in the fight and been reborn as undead. You would would think that they would retain some memory of what they had learned before they died.
Because they haven't decided to do it yet, or, more aptly, because enough people haven't asked for it yet.
Also, "everyone who knows anything about WoW lore", hands up those that predicted the Alliance adding a) Draenei, or b) Worgen. Anyone? Or that the Horde would get paladins by having, in a nutshell, Kael'thas "kidnap" what is, essentially, an archangel. Again, hands?
Or, Worgen, despite being explicitly an "aberration", can be both priests and druids. Why? Not necessarily for any lore reasons, but because Blizzard wanted to have another alliance race able to be druids.
You want Forsaken Paladins? Convince Blizzard that there is money in it for them. Works for
sparkly horses
...
Post by
Monday
Sparkly Horses =/= important lore.
For the Worgen Druids, there have been cases of "crop mages", who use nature based arcane magic. I'm not surprised it essentially mutated into druidism.
Post by
RedWinds
An Undead Paladin (or Forsaken, whatever the case), would be a huge contradiction of terms (like Starbursts, there I said it, don't bother). Paladins are notorious in every fantasy setting for killing undead without remorse, I suppose in a sense hate them. If there was an Undead Paladin, she/he would hate himself, therefore killing her/himself (your answer as to why there are none). There, explanation=done.
Post by
Eudemonia
Sparkly Horses =/= important lore.
For the Worgen Druids, there have been cases of "crop mages", who use nature based arcane magic. I'm not surprised it essentially mutated into druidism.
Err, if you say so... And where would those "crop mages" be, pray tell? I don't mean geographically, I mean, where in the "lore" is that referenced? Moreover, why into druidism, as opposed to, say, shamanism? For that matter, Goblin shamans, discuss.
By the by, does this mean that you had your hand in the air for "hands up those that predicted the Alliance adding a) Draenei, or b) Worgen"?
I'm further fascinated by the classification of "important lore", what is the non-important lore?
An Undead Paladin (or Forsaken, whatever the case), would be a huge contradiction of terms (like Starbursts, there I said it, don't bother).
The problem with this notion is that it's already been shown that, where Blizzard has a will, they will taffy-pull the lore until it relents. Case in point, "Blood Knights", i.e. Blood Elf Paladins.
From the official
Burning Crusade website
;
After long months of study and experimentation, he and his fellow wizards learned how to manipulate and corrupt the naaru's luminous energies. In the end the wizards
devised a process by which the powers of the Light could be transferred to
recipients who had not earned such abilities
.
Instead of feeding upon the naaru's magic, the blood elves would wield the naaru's Light-given powers themselves.
If the developers decide that the Horde needs a 3rd paladin race, and wants it to be Forsaken, they'll write something like that and be done with it. If the people want it enough, it'll happen.
Post by
Monday
Here
is a link to Wowwiki explaining nature magic. Check the article for references.
Moreover, why into druidism, as opposed to, say, shamanism? For that matter, Goblin shamans, discuss.
There is a very large difference between Druidism and Shamanism. Shamanism = Earth, Air, Fire and Water. The works.
Druidism = Nature. Very, very large difference (although technically Shamans have another "element" known as the Wild, which appear to be spirits. It isn't known (afaik) how that connects).
By the by, does this mean that you had your hand in the air for "hands up those that predicted the Alliance adding a) Draenei, or b) Worgen"?
Nope. Well, for the Worgen slightly. I thought that they may be Worgen/Undead judging by their close proximity to Silverpine. And I thought they may be joining the Alliance seeing as how the Gilneans hated anything non-human pretty much, although they were allied with elves and dwarves (they also didn't like the Alliance too much, so it was iffy).
I'm further fascinated by the classification of "important lore", what is the non-important lore?
A single mount item which has no backstory. You can't even compare the sparkle pony to Forsaken Paladins. Not even in the same league.
The Blood Elves siphoning of magic is semi believable though, seeing as how the whole race are experts on siphoning magic of any kind. I fail to see how the Light is any different, especially if extracted from a Naaru. The Blood Knight's are essentially holy warlocks (using power taken from another being against it/other things).
Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their
flesh burned off
(at least psychologically, if not physically).
Edit: Grammar is helpful, eh?
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
You won't convince Funden, dude. Forsaken holy priests ftw. ("But that's for mechanics and balance purposes" wha?)
It is. Have you ever seen an in-game (aka non-player) example of a Holy Priest? Or a lore example?
I know I seem hardheaded and @#$%^&baggy about this. But, tbh, it's one of my big pet peeves. I really, really hate the idea of Forsaken Paladins/Holy Priests.
Post by
Eudemonia
Here
is a link to Wowwiki explaining nature magic. Check the article for references.
Moreover, why into druidism, as opposed to, say, shamanism? For that matter, Goblin shamans, discuss.
There is a very large difference between Druidism and Shamanism. Shamanism = Earth, Air, Fire and Water. The works.
Druidism = Nature. Very, very large difference (although technically Shamans have another "element" known as the Wild, which appear to be spirits. It isn't known (afaik) how that connects).
By the by, does this mean that you had your hand in the air for "hands up those that predicted the Alliance adding a) Draenei, or b) Worgen"?
Nope. Well, for the Worgen slightly. I thought that they may be Worgen/Undead judging by their close proximity to Silverpine. And I thought they may be joining the Alliance seeing as how the Gilneans hated anything non-human pretty much, although they were allied with elves and dwarves (they also didn't like the Alliance too much, so it was iffy).
I'm further fascinated by the classification of "important lore", what is the non-important lore?
A single mount item which has no backstory. You can't even compare the sparkle pony to Forsaken Paladins. Not even in the same league.
The Blood Elves siphoning of magic is semi believable though, seeing as how the whole race are experts on siphoning magic of any kind. I fail to see how the Light is any different, especially if extracted from a Naaru. The Blood Knight's are essentially holy warlocks (using power taken from another being against it/other things).
Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their
flesh burned off
(at least psychologically, if not physically).
Edit: Grammar is helpful, eh?
Aww... see, you were doing so well until you tipped your hat and labeled WoWwiki as a source for lore. Because, you see, if that's lore, then guess what else is?
Sir Zeliek is an
undead paladin
who seemingly resisted being turned into a Death Knight like the other Horseman due to his powerful faith.
Hmm, an
undead paladin
in the lore. Shucks.
Now, before you go saying this is now the power of the light, but some Light-lite (diet light?), let's see what
Eligor Dawnbringer
has to say about it;
so strong in his faith, that even in undeath,
the power of the light
still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle.
In fairness, you've fallen victim to the classic fan's problem, you've convinced yourself that WoW's lore has some ontological inertia. The truth, some might call it the sad truth, is that WoW's lore is
what the developers want it to be
.
By the way, let me (again) be clear; if WoW's developers want there to be Forsaken Paladins, we will get Forsaken paladins, mainly because it's clear that the WoW development team feels that the lore is molded to their interests, rather then something that constrains them.
For example, suppose, crazily, the Dev team wanted, oh, say, a Space-Ship to crash on a small island near Kalimdoor. I know, I know, that sounds insane, but it's their game, they seem to feel they can do what they want.
Even stuff that doesn't ostensibly make any sense.
Or, hey, here's a better one: one of the in-game bosses fights and enslaves what is, essentially, an archangel. Then a player faction stores said archangel in a basement, where smackheads mainline divine power like it was china white. But that would be crazy. Nah... no one would believe that one...
Post by
Monday
Because, you see, if that's lore, then guess what else is?
I said Wowwiki had my reference in it, I never said it was a lore source in and of itself.
I admit that Sir Zeliek is an undead paladin. But think of it this way. In power of the Light/faith Him > Everyone. He is the exception, not the rule. He is better (more faithful, etc.) than your character can or will ever be.
By the way, let me (again) be clear; if WoW's developers want there to be Forsaken Paladins, we will get Forsaken paladins, mainly because it's clear that the WoW development team feels that the lore is molded to their interests, rather then something that constrains them.
I never said they wouldn't. I just said there isn't a basis (currently) for it.
Post by
Eudemonia
Because, you see, if that's lore, then guess what else is?
I said Wowwiki had my reference in it, I never said it was a lore source in and of itself.
I admit that Sir Zeliek is an undead paladin. But think of it this way. In power of the Light/faith Him > Everyone. He is the exception, not the rule. He is better (more faithful, etc.) than your character can or will ever be.
By the way, let me (again) be clear; if WoW's developers want there to be Forsaken Paladins, we will get Forsaken paladins, mainly because it's clear that the WoW development team feels that the lore is molded to their interests, rather then something that constrains them.
I never said they wouldn't. I just said there isn't a basis (currently) for it.
Err, so, other then the fact that one currently exists, there is no basis for it?
Is this like a girl being a virgin because her first time was too embarrassing to count?
Seriously though, you're saying, "X can't happen", I point to an instance of X happening, and you're saying that "That doesn't count". Why doesn't it count? Oh, it's "one of my big pet peeves" and you "really, really hate the idea of Forsaken Paladins/Holy Priests."
Yeah... the problem here is more that you're confusing how you
want
things to be, and how they
are
.
Just to be clear, I'm saying that if the dev's want em, we'll get em. You're saying "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off..." Except, of course, for
that one guy
.
Oh, and maybe
that other one
.
But other then them, it can't happen!
Hehe.
Post by
Monday
Seriously though, you're saying, "X can't happen", I point to an instance of X happening, and you're saying that "That doesn't count". Why doesn't it count? Oh, it's "one of my big pet peeves" and you "really, really hate the idea of Forsaken Paladins/Holy Priests."
Strawman. I never said that it wouldn't happen because I hate it.
To clarify: No, Zeliek doesn't count as a big example. He is the exception, not the rule.
Leonid isn't a Paladin.
You're saying "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off..." Except, of course, for that one guy.
For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare,
especially since it is self-destructive.
Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful.
Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group;
and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself
.
I admit, when I read this, I realized I was wrong. There are Forsaken Holy priests, but holy priest =/= Paladin. And they are rare.
Post by
Eudemonia
Seriously though, you're saying, "X can't happen", I point to an instance of X happening, and you're saying that "That doesn't count". Why doesn't it count? Oh, it's "one of my big pet peeves" and you "really, really hate the idea of Forsaken Paladins/Holy Priests."
Strawman. I never said that it wouldn't happen because I hate it.
Okay, so then change it to;
Seriously though, you're saying, "X can't happen", I point to an instance of X happening, and you're saying that "That doesn't count". Why doesn't it count?
Leonid isn't a Paladin.
You're saying "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off..." Except, of course, for that one guy.
Because....?
For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare,
especially since it is self-destructive.
Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful.
Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group;
and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself
.
I admit, when I read this, I realized I was wrong. There are Forsaken Holy priests, but holy priest =/= Paladin.
Aaaaaand? You said "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off"; we have now, without a shadow of a doubt, established that undead can, in fact channel holy magic.
By the by, the quote you bring out there (presumably from
here
) also establishes such malleability of lore as goblins are able to be shamans because this is a form of business(!).
Edit in reply to your edit:
To clarify: No, Zeliek doesn't count as a big example. He is the exception, not the rule.
The problem with that is that Zeliek is also proof of concept.
Post by
Monday
Because....?
Give me one way that Leonid is a Paladin.
You said "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off"; we have now, without a shadow of a doubt, established that undead can, in fact channel holy magic.
The two are not mutually exclusive. They cannot channel the Light... without being burned and cauterized. Yes, they can channel. No, they cannot do it without pain. I don't see what's confusing about that.
also establishes such malleability of lore as goblins are able to be shamans because this is a form of business(!).
/shrug. I never really cared for Shamans too much. I'm not really concerned about it one way or the other. Especially since there isn't any lore saying the Elementals can't be bought.
Or, hey, here's a better one: one of the in-game bosses fights and enslaves what is, essentially, an archangel. Then a player faction stores said archangel in a basement, where smackheads mainline divine power like it was china white. But that would be crazy. Nah... no one would believe that one...
Also: The Naaru are physical beings. Thus they are able to be captured and held. After all, the Lich King, a Dark God, was basically incapacitated by ghosts.
Okay, so then change it
Read my edit. Zeliek is an exception, not the rule. It sounds lame, but it is true. You notice how Eligor goes out of his way to say that Zeliek was so faithful that he could channel while being undead? That kinda paints him as special, no?
Post by
Eudemonia
You said "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off"; we have now, without a shadow of a doubt, established that undead can, in fact channel holy magic.
The two are not mutually exclusive. They cannot channel the Light... without being burned and cauterized. Yes, they can channel. No, they cannot do it without pain. I don't see what's confusing about that.
Uh, "unable to channel" and "able to channel" are kinda mutually exclusive... but you're taking baby steps, it's all good.
Or are you saying that your original statement that "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off (at least psychologically, if not physically)" should be interpreted to mean;
'Undead can channel Holy magic without any in-game consequences whatsoever, and do so flagrantly'. Was that what you meant?
That's okay, at least we've moved you from "Undead... wouldn't be able to channel holy magic..." to "Yes, they can channel". Progress!
Read my edit. Zeliek is an exception, not the rule. It sounds lame, but it is true. You notice how Eligor goes out of his way to say that Zeliek was so faithful that he could channel while being undead? That kinda paints him as special, no?
Yeah, see, that one falls flat out of the gate: the problem, of course, is that
we're all special!
Seriously, this is an RPG, the players are all unique, exceptional individuals, persons that have laid low Gods and near Gods, as well as
saving all life on the planet personally
. To limit undead paladins to the ranks of the "special" is to place no limit on them at all.
Because....?
Give me one way that Leonid is a Paladin. Give me your source for Arthas being "a Dark God."
But let me be magnanimous, I will stipulate that Leonid can neither be proven to be (nor proven not to be) the second undead paladin.
Post by
Monday
Give me your source for Arthas being "a Dark God."
Fine, essentially a Dark God, (also said to be one of the most powerful beings the world has ever known in the WoW manual iirc).
Uh, "unable to channel" and "able to channel" are kinda mutually exclusive... but you're taking baby steps, it's all good.
Or are you saying that your original statement that "Undead, however, wouldn't be able to channel holy magic without having their flesh burned off (at least psychologically, if not physically)" should be interpreted to mean;
'Undead can channel Holy magic without any in-game consequences whatsoever, and do so flagrantly'. Was that what you meant?
That's okay, at least we've moved you from "Undead... wouldn't be able to channel holy magic..." to "Yes, they can channel". Progress!
I really don't see what you are trying to argue here. I already said earlier that I was wrong, it was my bad that I said Forsaken couldn't channel the Light. However, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. I said, in lore, Forsaken priests cannot channel the Light without being burned and cauterized, while you keep arguing that there are no effects in game.
Game mechanics =/= lore. A blue post saying that Forsaken are burned and cauterized whenever they cast/have Light cast upon them trumps game balance.
Forsaken priest are all, lore wise, Shadow priests. That's what they are. So Blizzard gave them the priest class because it is an essential part of their culture. However, they aren't holy priests (except in rare cases). They get Holy as an option because Blizzard wouldn't just limit Forsaken priests to being Shadow only.
So if you're arguing from in game, sure our player characters can run around and cast Light spells at will. However, lore-wise, our characters haven't done half the crap we do on them.
But let me be magnanimous, I will stipulate that Leonid can neither be proven to be (nor proven not to be) the second undead paladin.
I can't prove that Thrall isn't a Paladin. Can I say that he is?
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