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The Easter spirit - bringing discussion back into Randomness.
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
How's things in the Vatican with all the child abuse scandals flying around? I heard something about an apology of sorts, but not much else.
I don't think it was any worse there than here or anywhere. As far as I know, the brunt of it went down the week or so before I got there. Then again, I don't speak Italian, heh, so who knows what I missed.
I'm afraid I do not understand what you're trying to say. Your trustworthiness in the teachings of Christianity is your religion, that is called Christianity. Thus, you have faith in Christianity.
Let's parse your sentence here.
Trustworthiness in the teaching of Christianity = Religion
Religion = Christianity
Therefore it follows that
Christianity = Trustworthiness in the teachings of Christianity
which make no logical (or grammatical) sense at all.
Then add
Faith in Christianity
and you get
Faith in the trustworthiness in the teachings of Christianity
which makes even less sense.
Christianity is my Religion. Christianity is my Faith. I believe in certain truths. That is my Faith. I don't
believe
in my Faith.
I believe in God the Father.
I believe in Jesus, God and Man.
I believe in the Holy Spirit.
I believe in eternal life, the communion of saints, forgiveness of sins.
^This is my Faith. This is Christianity.
Post by
Adamsm
I disagree, I was trying to show him why I think his ideas are flawed.
I fully accept that Hyper is smarter then me, but I don't agree that makes everything he says right.
So you felt that you needed to use a quote from a religion you don't believe in to back that up...... yeah......
Post by
Orranis
I disagree, I was trying to show him why I think his ideas are flawed.
I fully accept that Hyper is smarter then me, but I don't agree that makes everything he says right.
So you felt that you needed to use a quote from a religion you don't believe in to back that up...... yeah......
I do not believe in the Religion, but I believe in the proverb.
Post by
Queggy
Firstly, no. It's been bastardised into showing other people that you have accepted Christ. Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. I don't think that was done as a way of showing other people that He accepted Himself. If it's about showing other people your faith, it's about your faith in God (and by extension, the Holy Trinity), not in Christ specifically. It's precisely that focus on Christ specifically that I dislike about modern Christians.
. . .
How much of the Bible have you actually read? I know what I'm talking about here. In the Bible it says that the only way to salvation is through Christ alone. It doesn't say to trust in Christ and then go dunk yourself in water.
As to Jesus being baptized, it was to show that he was anointed and blessed by the Father. It was also the sort of "opening point" on his ministry.
I also never said it was to show faith in Christ alone. I don't know why you said that . . .
Later, the Catholic Church identified a baptism of desire, by which those preparing for baptism who die before actually receiving the sacrament are considered saved.
...
Catholics believe that baptism is necessary for the cleansing of the taint of original sin, and for that reason infant baptism is a common practice.
What denomination of Christian are you - Anglican? One which doesn't believe the sacraments are required, at least, I presume.
I dislike how people think the Catholics are the head of all Christians everywhere. Just because the pope says something is a Christian law doesn't mean it is.
I don't classify myself as any denomination. I am just Christian.
The Catholics believe many things that don't line up with the Bible. I'm not sure whether or not to classify them as Christians or as people like Jehovah's Witness . . .
Actually, I've always wondered where the Devil came in anywhere. Truth be told, I'm not anywhere near done with my Torah studies, but besides for Ha-Satan, there's no devil anywhere. He seems to be the retcon of ages.
Lucifer the fallen angel and the snake in the garden ring any bells?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I dislike how people think the Catholics are the head of all Christians everywhere. Just because the pope says something is a Christian law doesn't mean it is.
The Pope doesn't make "Christian laws." What are you talking about?
Roman Catholic Cannon Law only applies to Roman Catholics.
The Catholics believe many things that don't line up with the Bible.
Everything we believe "lines up" with the Bible.
The issue is that we believe things beyond
sola scriptura
. And I can demonstrate that you do too.
As to Jesus being baptized, it was to show that he was anointed and blessed by the Father.
See? Does the Bible state Jesus' motive anywhere? No. So you just added something.
Post by
Orranis
How's things in the Vatican with all the child abuse scandals flying around? I heard something about an apology of sorts, but not much else.
I don't think it was any worse there than here or anywhere. As far as I know, the brunt of it went down the week or so before I got there. Then again, I don't speak Italian, heh, so who knows what I missed.
I'm afraid I do not understand what you're trying to say. Your trustworthiness in the teachings of Christianity is your religion, that is called Christianity. Thus, you have faith in Christianity.
Let's parse your sentence here.
Trustworthiness in the teaching of Christianity = Religion
Religion = Christianity
Therefore it follows that
Christianity = Trustworthiness in the teachings of Christianity
which make no logical (or grammatical) sense at all.
Then add
Faith in Christianity
and you get
Faith in the trustworthiness in the teachings of Christianity
which makes even less sense.
Christianity is my Religion. Christianity is my Faith. I believe in certain truths. That is my Faith. I don't
believe
in my Faith.
I believe in God the Father.
I believe in Jesus, God and Man.
I believe in the Holy Spirit.
I believe in eternal life, the communion of saints, forgiveness of sins.
^This is my Faith. This is Christianity.
That was my point, it wasn't making sense to me. Thanks for elaborating.
Post by
Queggy
I dislike how people think the Catholics are the head of all Christians everywhere. Just because the pope says something is a Christian law doesn't mean it is.
The Pope doesn't make "Christian laws." What are you talking about?
Later, the Catholic Church identified a baptism of desire, by which those preparing for baptism who die before actually receiving the sacrament are considered saved.
That. According to Squishalot it's a sacrament.
Everything we believe "lines up" with the Bible. The issue is that we believe things beyond sola scriptura.
Such as praying to Mary to beseech for our behalves to Jesus?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I dislike how people think the Catholics are the head of all Christians everywhere. Just because the pope says something is a Christian law doesn't mean it is.
The Pope doesn't make "Christian laws." What are you talking about?
Later, the Catholic Church identified a baptism of desire, by which those preparing for baptism who die before actually receiving the sacrament are considered saved.
That. According to Squishalot it's a sacrament.
I'm not sure what your point is. Baptism isn't a "law." It's a Sacrament.
Everything we believe "lines up" with the Bible. The issue is that we believe things beyond sola scriptura.
Such as praying to Mary to beseech for our behalves to Jesus?
You have such a lovely way of mincing up Catholic teaching. But you get the general idea, yes.
Post by
MyTie
Ah hello Queggy! Good to see you out and about.
Just dropping a line to say that "I support Queggy's position here", where the religious discussion is concerned. The problem is, "Christianity" can be constantly redefined, depending on the poster's needs. Until you resolve the symantics, you'll never resolve the greater issues.
Post by
Queggy
Everything we believe "lines up" with the Bible. The issue is that we believe things beyond sola scriptura.
Such as praying to Mary to beseech for our behalves to Jesus?
You have such a lovely way of mincing up Catholic teaching. But you get the general idea, yes.
Which, isn't goes against the Bible's teaching. It says we only need Jesus. We don't pray to Mary. She's merely human. We can pray to Jesus Himself due to his sacrifice for us on the cross.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Which, isn't goes against the Bible's teaching. It says we only need Jesus. We don't pray to Mary. She's merely human. We can pray to Jesus Himself due to his sacrifice for us on the cross.
You just said that the Bible's teaching is that "we only need Jesus." So now show me what Catholic teaching states that we need Mary?
I don't need to work out an extra hour every week to stay healthy.
Is it helpful? Yes.
Do those two things contradict? No
Let's take what the Church teaches.
Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.
Where in the Bible does it say we cannot or should not pray in communion with others? In fact it greatly promotes such a practice.
Where in the Bible does is say we should not magnify the works of God?
Where in the Bible does it say we cannot ask others to pray to and praise God for us?
Post by
Queggy
Which, isn't goes against the Bible's teaching. It says we only need Jesus. We don't pray to Mary. She's merely human. We can pray to Jesus Himself due to his sacrifice for us on the cross.
You just said that the Bible's teaching is that "we only need Jesus." So now show me what Catholic teaching states that we need Mary?
You said I had the gist of the idea when I said you prayed to Mary. First off, you can't pray to her in the first place. Second, even IF you could pray to her, you don't NEED to.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Which, isn't goes against the Bible's teaching. It says we only need Jesus. We don't pray to Mary. She's merely human. We can pray to Jesus Himself due to his sacrifice for us on the cross.
You just said that the Bible's teaching is that "we only need Jesus." So now show me what Catholic teaching states that we need Mary?
You said I had the gist of the idea when I said you prayed to Mary. First off, you can't pray to her in the first place. Second, even IF you could pray to her, you don't NEED to.
And show me where the Catholic Church says you need to pray to her.
And show me where in the Bible it says you cannot ask those in heaven for intercession.
So far your entire argument is against a strawman.
Post by
Queggy
And show me where the Catholic Church says you need to pray to her.
And show me where in the Bible it says you cannot ask those in heaven for intercession.
I'm not a Catholic, so I don't know your laws. You may not NEED to pray to her, but why it it taught to do so?
Maybe because it says that JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE. I don't pray to my ancestors to help me out because I'm a Christian, not a spirit worshiper.
Post by
Squishalot
I dislike how people think the Catholics are the head of all Christians everywhere. Just because the pope says something is a Christian law doesn't mean it is.
I don't think they are. I'm just pointing out that it is a Sacrament (in the eyes of Catholics), and that it was probably where Patty was coming from. I fully appreciate that not all Christians believe that the Sacraments are necessary, and that's one of my personal criticisms of Catholicism.
My question about your denomination wasn't intended to be condescending, it was simply a question of fact. My apologies if it was taken by you otherwise.
I also never said it was to show faith in Christ alone. I don't know why you said that . . .
Baptism is merely a way of showing other people that you have accepted Christ.
The emphasis on 'Christ', and the lack of 'God', lack of 'the Holy Spirit', lack of 'the Holy Trinity'.
As to Jesus being baptized, it was to show that he was anointed and blessed by the Father. It was also the sort of "opening point" on his ministry.
That would sortof suggest that baptism is done to be blessed by the Father. Not as some sort of open declaration of faith. Even with your take on the matter (which HSR appears to disagree with), it doesn't stand to reason.
Maybe because it says that JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE.
I also never said it was to show faith in Christ alone.
Again, to me, these two statements are unreconcilable. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost may be one and the same, but to say "JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE" would appear to highlight one and reject the other two.
Edit:
I'm not sure whether or not to classify them as Christians or as people like Jehovah's Witness . . .
Unfortunately for you, they are both Christians, whether you like it or not.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I'm not a Catholic, so I don't know your laws. You may not NEED to pray to her, but why it it taught to do so?
Why is what taught how? Are you going to show me where the Church teaches that we need to pray to Mary, or not?
Maybe because it says that JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE. I don't pray to my ancestors to help me out because I'm a Christian, not a spirit worshiper
So to ask someone to pray for you is to worship them? I ask people to pray for me all the time. People ask me to pray for them. I pray every member of my family by name every night. Is that wrong? I doubt any Christian would say that was wrong. So why can't we do the same with those who are closest to God? There are people looking into God's face at this moment, and you're saying they can't pray for me? That I can't ask them to do so? That I can't pray
with
them?
My biggest problem with you is that you have all this silly notions about what Catholics believe in your head that really can't be much more than indoctrination. You honestly believe we worship saints? Really? I talk with them all the time. They are my friends. They are my brothers in and through Christ. They are with Christ more perfectly then I am in this fallen world. Of course I'm going to ask them to pray for me. Of course I don't worship them.
Lastly I would prompt you to read the entire sentence. How is the mediation qualified? He is the mediator of
redemption
. Yes, no other man can mediate God's redemption. Mary can't, the saints can't, I can't. Only Christ mediates redemption.
Come on HSR, I'm sure someone as well versed in religion as you knows of the pagan origins of Christmas and of the bible passages condoning what most people do at Christmas.
Go to a Christmas vigil mass at a Catholic church. Then tell me Christmas is not about Christ.
You may celebrate it as a secular holiday, that doesn't make my celebration any less religious.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
So to ask someone to pray for you is to worship them? I ask people to pray for me all the time. People ask me to pray for them. I pray every member of my family by name every night.
Most Catholics I know have a painting, a photocopy, a statue, depicting the image of Mary, at their workplace, in their car, at their home.
Now, I know that we have paintings, photographs of family members, definitely. But I do believe that some Catholics (as individuals, not as the institution) get carried away and start to elevate Mary above her place (as defined by the Catholic Church).
The issue of sainthood is that people are praying to the relevant saints for those saints to *provide a cure*, not for those saints to appeal to God to provide a cure. There is a subtle difference, but a difference, nonetheless. And again, this is likely to be an individual thing, rather than an institutional thing. The problem is that it's the institution's practices that result in the individuals having a... 'questionable' practice.
Post by
MyTie
Catholics believe that Christianity evolves and changes through the years. Christians believe that the teachings of Christ should be followed. Trying to say that 'Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity' to a Catholic is difficult because Christianity is what the followers believe it is, not what Christ taught (according to said Catholics). Since I believe that Christianity is the belief in what Christ taught, and Christ never mentioned Christmas, I say that the two have nothing to do with eachother.
This belief by Catholics that Christianity is defined, not by Christ, but by its followers, is evidenced:Go to a Christmas vigil mass at a Catholic church. Then tell me Christmas is not about Christ.
Now, ask a Catholic to point to where Christmas is taught in the Bible..... hmm... not so much. Now, I believe that followers of Christ have more important things to worry about than the secularization of an already secular holiday, but that's just me, aparantly.
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