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Just for gits and shiggles...
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Post by
cipher333
Ideal healer gear?
I was bored so I went through the items trying to get the best (leather) spirit from items (other than perhaps the T10 stuff) and then stacking spell power in the gems/enchants. Enchanting is required, but I had to pick up enchanting anyway (for guild), and you're looking at spending nearly 20k on the rings, but that isn't TOO much of a grind, since most people can make 1k+/day easy.
If you don't want to look at the gear itself:
Average Gear Level: 262.9
Int: 1311
Stam: 1313
Spirit: 1423
SP: 3034
Crit: 561 (12.22%)
Haste: 510 (15.55%)
Like I said, I was bored :P
Post by
skribs
1) Use profiler instead of comparison. It's much easier to see.
2) Only 510 haste is NOT ideal. You want 735 if using Celestial Focus and 856 without it.
3) Why go for those rings, when there are better rings offered in ICC?
4) While Spirit stacking is nice, you'd get more from normal/heroic Solace than those you chose. If you want regen trinkets, get the Spark of Hope and Ephemeral Snowflake.
5) You didn't include the crit you get from it, or your effective mana pool. This would have helped if you had used profiler. Also, base stats have a base they start at and can be affected by talents. So 1423 Spi really is a lot more. It's going to be 1636+(base*talents)
Post by
cipher333
I know the profiler is far superior to this, but unfortunately it isn't working for me right now (says it's down for maintenance or something).
As for the rings, those were just the first ones that came to mind, as I've never seen the ICC rings (haven't been able to get into an ICC raid yet).
As for the trinkets, I did choose Spark of Hope, I realize it might've been overlooked because of the comparison. The reason Ephemeral Snowflake isn't on the list is because it didn't come up in my search (I believe I searched Spirit>0).
The haste is just me being uneducated, I suppose, and the rest is partially because of the profiler being down, partially forgetfulness. I'll edit in the crit now, and when the profiler is back up I'll change the link as well.
Post by
skribs
Oh ok, if its down understandable. The rings you could have found by searching for SP rings that have an ilvl > 251 or 264. For trinkets,
never
search for a specific stat, as trinkets often have 1 stat + 1 proc/stack/use effect, and the effect will never show up on the stat for searching. It's almost always the effect which defines a trinket, as well. I know which trinkets you picked, but I was suggesting 2 very powerful combinations.
If you're not quite sure on which stats you need, or how much you need of them, check out the stickies here or look up the class mechanics on ElitistJerks. Those provide great information for you.
Post by
oberondreaming
As for the rings, those were just the first ones that came to mind, as I've never seen the ICC rings (haven't been able to get into an ICC raid yet).
You do know you're sitting on a giant database of items, right?
You definitely want the
Ashen Verdict one
. It's just flat out better than the Loop, and if you're getting Heroic ICC gear, you should already be exalted with them easily. Also look for the other
pretty
good
rings
from ICC. The Dalaran rings aren't really worth it any more, unless you want an extra hearthstone, and they're certainly not in any theoretical "Ideal Healer Gear" set.
(I believe I searched Spirit>0).
That's just the beginning of your problems.
You seem to have gone for something like a max spirit/regen gear set, which is typically pretty pointless. Spellpower > spirit/regen for almost all situations, as is getting Haste capped.
Swap Boots, Bracers and Belt for haste peices. You actually also probably better off with the Heroic T10
boomkin
chest piece (though short of that, and if you're intentionally excluding cloth, Vestments of Spruce and Fir is the way to go).
And DMC:Greatness is a craptacular trinket for healers (except
maybe
Paladins, though even they'd prefer...)
Dual
Solace
is a way better than the combo you have there. Heroic Solace/
Heroic Abacus
probably is too (even without any regen on Abacus).
Post by
skribs
Eh, as a Paladin main, I prefer the Tears of the Vanquished > DMC:G (Int) > Talisman > Solaces.
Yes, the 200's are the BiS.
Of course, the stuff you said about druids is right. Although while going for pure regen might be considered a bad thing, the way gear works I'd go spirit+haste to haste cap and then spirit+crit if I could. Basically considering spirit > crit, so I might as well maximize spirit on gear if it's one of 2 choices.
Post by
MegaVolt
Although while going for pure regen might be considered a bad thing, the way gear works I'd go spirit+haste to haste cap and then spirit+crit if I could. Basically considering spirit > crit, so I might as well maximize spirit on gear if it's one of 2 choices.
This is the way to go. Int, sta and SP will be on the gear naturally, there is no way to avoid it. Out of the optional stats we have haste > spirit > mp5 >>> crit >= hit. Yes, that's how useless crit is.
The thing is you will never reach the haste cap anyway. If you get above 735 haste it is more beneficial to spec out of CF than taking crit pieces. If you get to 856 haste you just swap your orange SP/haste gems (those should be sitting in pretty much every yellow socket if you are not haste capped yet) for pure red SP ones.
As far as I know even in BiS ilvl 277 gear it is impossible to get over 856 haste without gems (assuming Trauma and 4t10 with the chest as off piece) so it doesn't really matter what the next best stat would be.
Post by
oberondreaming
This is the way to go. Int, sta and SP will be on the gear naturally, there is no way to avoid it.
Which is true of normal gear. But not true of trinkets.
For trinkets, SP > everything else. (There's a reason we put Runed Cardinal Rubies in all of our gem slots.)
An SP/regen trinket (like Solace) is great, a SP/haste proc trinket (like Egg of Mortal Essence) isn't ideal since haste
procs
are pretty useless. Neither is, for obvious reasons, an SP/crit trinket like Nevermelting Ice Crystal. But they're still both better than something like Talisman of Resurgence, just because of the SP. A pure SP trinket, like Illustration of the Dragon Soul or Eye of the Broodmother is also good. (Though the SP on Broodmother is being surpassed by trinkets with SP/something else these days).
Pure Regen trinkets have their place in particularly taxing hard mode fights, but should stay in your bags for normal stuff. And even so, you can probably get away with using a SP/regen trinket in one slot for those. (Solace + Snowflake for instance.)
Eh, as a Paladin main, I prefer the Tears of the Vanquished > DMC:G (Int) > Talisman > Solaces.
Yes, the 200's are the BiS.
Mathematically, that's not right. Solace is slightly better than Tears (
link
). Heroic Solace is significantly better than Tears. Dual Solace is still BiS for paladins (since heroic Sliver of Ice is 2m cooldown rather than the datamined 1m).
(I'm not even sure why you'd think DMC:G is better than Solace as the biggest advantage of DMC:G, the 300 proc, has no guarantee of being up while you're DPing making it not a whole lot more than a +90 int trinket.)
Now, if paladins want to pass on Solace because Tears just isn't that much worse or they'd rather use DMC:G, then I'm certainly not going to complain. ;) But it is a better trinket, even for them.
Post by
MegaVolt
This is the way to go. Int, sta and SP will be on the gear naturally, there is no way to avoid it.
Which is true of normal gear. But not true of trinkets.
Right, I forgot to mention that. Trinkets of course have different rules.
Current BiS is
Althors
without a doubt and then, depending on how much you need mana regeneration, either
Dragon Soul
(no regen),
Lunar Dust
(trade 20 SP for about 100 mp5, very good) or
Solance
(my personal favorite, trade another 10 SP for roughly 50 mp5).
I don't quite agree to the SP > everything statement. Mana regeneration is important and a Druid will run out of mana in long fights. A pure 5x1 rotation at the haste cap is impossible to maintain and it only gets worse if you have to spot heal since those spells eat even more mana per second. Sacrificing some spellpower to gain massive mana regeneration (e.g. taking Solace over Dragon Soul or gemming the mana restore meta over the spellpower one) is often worth it.
Post by
skribs
On druid trinkets - my style has always been to gear for more regen and then overheal more. It works great with the druid and paladin styles of healing, which are what I mainly play.
Okay, that is a wierd way to play a Paladin. I
never
use DP, as it's more gimp than it's worth (50% MSing yourself, basically, for 25% of the fight). Also, that math failed to include Replenishment, Seal of Wisdom, or any other mana-based regen (e.g. Revitalize, Mana Tide, Hymn of Hope, Rapture) which may be on you at the time.
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t84922-holy_paladin_compendium_3_3_a/#Trinkets
I'll trust an EJ sort based off Rawr before I trust the napkin math of a standard wowhead user.
Post by
oberondreaming
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t84922-holy_paladin_compendium_3_3_a/#Trinkets
I'll trust an EJ sort based off Rawr before I trust the napkin math of a standard wowhead user.
Uh... that link agrees with me.
listed in ascending order of how Rawr thinks they are useful for a HL focused Paladin
Ascending order of how useful they are means the less useful ones come before the more useful ones. Tears and DMC:G are the two
least
useful trinkets on that list.
Regarding druid trinkets, I don't find that SP interacts with overhealing the same way it does for paladins. For a paladin, more SP on your HL just means that every HL will overheal for more (since most of your HL casts are already overhealing some). This isn't true in the same way for druids. For a druid, more SP on your Rejuv means that each tick of your rejuv hits for more, and while overall most of your rejuv casts will overheal, that's not necessarily true for most of your rejuv ticks. (Especially if other raid healers aren't jumping down your throat with Circles of Healing and Chain Heals.) We also just have so much regen already without needing to focus on it, and are generally casting such mana efficient spells, that you should rarely be running out of mana (unless most of your other healers die or you're doing hard modes).
Druids need throughput a lot more than paladins do and need regen a lot less. Again, there's a reason we gem for SP instead of gemming for regen (though we'd probably gem Spirit rather than Intellect like paladins do).
Post by
skribs
Good thing I play multiple healers and go to all 4 classes pages. Now that I actually look at it, I should have known with heroic solace being farther down. Great, now I have to bring my pally to ToC again instead of bringing an alt.
I also tend to have to go for Regen because on my realm I'm carrying the other healers. We're currently 237/241 in terms of progression (as a realm) and there is only one healer who's been able to outperform my druid (another druid) until patch 3.3 hit and my druid is falling behind in gear (I was behind back then as well, but now I'm farther behind). So normal mode healing with 2 good healers, 1-2 okay healers, and 1-3 horrible healers still requires the good players to pump out large numbers. On my paladin, nobody outperforms me. I need the regen because I'm requiring some of those burst heals via nourish/RG to keep the raid up.
Post by
oberondreaming
I also tend to have to go for Regen because on my realm I'm carrying the other healers.
Yeah, if you're having to carry other people (especially the tank healers) I can understand going for regen. The spells you have to use in that case (Regrowth, Nourish, Lifebloom) cost a lot more than the ones your average raid healer uses (Rejuv, Wild Growth, Swiftmend).
Sacrificing some spellpower to gain massive mana regeneration (e.g. taking Solace over Dragon Soul or gemming the mana restore meta over the spellpower one) is often worth it.
Yeah, but sacrificing all your spellpower (from trinkets) to get regen (i.e. DMC:G Spirit or even Spark of Hope) is generally something that you shouldn't need to be doing. (Of course there are a few places where you might, but it's atypical.) Solace is so damn good for everyone because you're getting above average SP and above average mana regen in the same trinket. But for example, I'm running (normal) Solace + Illustration and that tends to be enough regen for me. Especially since the next best/likliest option (Lunar Dust) costs a bunch of frost emblems I need to be saving for my T10.
Post by
MegaVolt
Agreed, Solace is as far as I'd go with trading SP for regen. Spark of Hope and similar are not an option.
I still keep the
duck
in my bag though. If more regen is ever needed swapping the idol instead of the trinket is probably the best thing to do. That being said I didn't need it since ICC release, not even for the Lich King.
Post by
oberondreaming
I still keep the
duck
in my bag though. If more regen is ever needed swapping the idol instead of the trinket is probably the best thing to do. That being said I didn't need it since ICC release, not even for the Lich King.
I keep the duck too, because I've already got it and I wouldn't have to spend any more emblems on it, but I'd really rather swap trinkets.
The Duck is, best case scenario (constant 5x1), 312.5 MP5 in exchange for 234 SP (more if, for some crazy reason you've already bought Black Willow). If, instead, you're only casting, say 3 rejuvs every 6 seconds it's only 187.5 MP5. And it only gets worse the more you use other spells.
Swapping Illustration for Lunar Dust would really be a much preferable trade, since you're getting, as you pointed out earlier, about 100 MP5 for only a 20 SP loss. But you've also got to shell out the Frost Emblems.
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