This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Classic Theme
Thottbot Theme
Arcane Mages and Haste
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
asakawa
i was under the impression that the ideal rotation occasionally used an instant cast when mbarr doesn't proc.
well, if nothing is cast but 2.5 second spells then your soft caps are purely proc and buff based. dependant on hero/lust, icy veins, trinkets, black magic, engineering gloves etc. etc.
this is nice and simple compared to classes using lots of spells with lots of cast times. with instants as well you have a point where the value of haste is reduced when it stops affecting your instant spells but continues to help the majority of the rotation.
at its most basic the plateaus i'm talking about are the points where more haste has allowed something to occur. for instance, the point at which you can get another full cast into the icy veins duration. if this occurred at 601 haste then the six hundred and first point of haste is worth far more than the six hundred and second point. the value has hit a plateau.
these points are incredibly difficult to define and usually not worth trying to hit but it is worth acknowledging that haste's value isn't purely linear.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
i'm not really taking part in the side of the discussion on stat weights and gemming, just the haste mechanics at the root of it all.
i don't know nearly enough of the specifics of mages to draw any conclusions. i'll leave that to others ^_^
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
365547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Sorry, but I'm going to question your haste formula. (Yeah, I'm an a$$ like that.)
CT' = CT / CS' = 2.5 seconds / (1.01 ^ r)
I was always under the impression that it was:
CT' = CT / CS' = 2.5 seconds / (1 + 0.01 * r)
where r = haste %. Thus, 100% haste results in CT' = 2.5 / (1 + 1) = 1.25sec cast time, i.e. twice as fast.
The EJ link you provided appears to back this up:
To determine the new cast time of a spell after haste rating is applied, take the percentage of haste, as a decimal, and 1. Divide the cast time by that number. For example, 10% haste against on a 3 second Fireball would be 3 / 1.10, giving a new cast time of 2.72~.
Using your formula, you would end up with 3 / (1.01^10) = 2.715s, vs 3 / (1.10) = 2.727s.
Just to reinforce, here's the quote from
wowwiki
:
New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + % Spell Haste )
This would mean that haste is not linear (like SP) nor multiplicative/geometric (like anything), but is in fact diminishing (like Crit), in that 1% extra haste has less impact than the previous 1%.
Consider the following table:
Haste% Cast Time' Casts per 2.5secs
0% 2.5 1
1% 2.475248 1.01
5% 2.380952 1.05
10% 2.272727 1.10
50% 1.666667 1.50
51% 1.655629 1.51
The improvement in DPS from your 1st % point of haste is 1%. The improvement in DPS from your 51st % point of haste is 1.51 / 1.50 -1 = 0.6667%. This is roughly the same way that Crit works as well.
This is why there's a certain ratio to keep haste at, where stacking a bit more SP for a linear (scaled by the amount of Haste and Crit you have) increase is greater than the diminished haste benefit. If it was geometric, the ideal process would be to stack haste endlessly, which isn't the case.
Do you mind also clarifying in your post what the 1.1x scaling is? It's not clear what the ratio is calculated as. (SP/haste or something? That can't be right, but it has to be something linked to SP for it to replace SP in the weightings ranking.)
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
So it's not a fixed recommended ratio then? That's how it came across in the text, anyway. (eg, tanks have a 1.9 ratio between dodge and parry stats, if you have 19 dodge, you should have 10 parry to min/max)
To me, if SP is 1, and Haste is 1.05, why wouldn't you stack Haste next? What makes 1.1 the crucial point?
And no, I'm not camping, I just checked before heading to bed :P
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Ah, I understand, all good then.
Post by
Squishalot
Just going to try to reinvigorate this discussion, since it's still a worthwhile discussion to have, and it wasn't really answered convincingly in the first instance.
Assuming you're running with some communication, you can sufficiently predict when you'll get most haste buffs. You'll know you'll have Bloodlust for 40 seconds. You know you'll have Icy Veins for 20 seconds. You know you'll get the T10 2pc bonus every time you MB AM, so you can factor the effect of those, to work out how much benefit you're actually getting from haste at different points in time.
If we can identify the %DPS increase from the next point of haste at each point in time, we can work out an average %DPS increase from haste (based on the haste buff uptime), and compare it to other stats.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I'd love to, my mage is sitting on 76 (and a half, every exp bar counts!) at the moment, so it's going to be very meaningful for me.
The only problem is - not having an 80 Mage, I have no idea what 'average' numbers are, and I can't access Wowwiki at work to get spellpower coefficients and the like if necessary. So I might need help.
Things we need:
1) Spell rotations
- we can work this out in several categories - suggest any others that are reasonable?
Arcane
:
a) AB4 AM (whether or not MB has procced)
or
b) AB4 MBAM (keep spamming AB until MB procs, minimum of 4 stacks)
or
c) ABx MBAM (spam AB until MB procs, then use MB, irrespective of how many AB stacks, for T10 haste proc)
Frost
:
a) FBx BFFFB (in the same terminology ;p Frostbolt spam, using Frostfire Bolt on every Brain Freeze proc, for the T10 haste proc, Deep Freeze on cooldown)
Fire
:
(I know absolutely nothing about Fire, so I'm not going to think about it.)
2) Spells used
:
Arcane Blast:
Base cast time: 2.5 secs
Talented cast time: 2.5 secs
Arcane Missile:
Base cast time: 5 secs
Procced cast time: 2.5 secs
Frostbolt:
Base cast time: 3 secs
Talented cast time: 2.3 secs (Improved Frostbolt, Empowered Frostbolt)
Frostfire Bolt
Base cast time: 3 secs
Procced cast time: 1.5 secs
3) Stages
:
Each Arcane spell is 2.5secs long, making it very convenient to calculate numbers.
Stage 1) No buffs
Stage 2) Bloodlust
Stage 3) Icy Veins
Stage 4) T10 proc
Stage 5) Bloodlust + Icy Veins
Stage 6) Bloodlust + T10 proc
Stage 7) Icy Veins + T10 proc
Stage 8) Bloodlust + Icy Veins + T10 proc
This corresponds to:
1) 0% haste
2) 30% haste
3) 20% haste
4) 12% haste
5) 50% haste
6) 42% haste
7) 32% haste
8) 62% haste
Uptime on each stage:
Edit: placeholder for me to remind me that calc is slightly wrong - 12% MB haste means that you'll get more ABs into the 5 secs than calculation suggests
Rotation A: AB4AM
MB proc: (AB x 4) + (MBAM) - 5 seconds
No proc: (AB x 4) + AM
The chances of getting a MB proc after 4 ABs is (0.4) + (0.6)*(0.4) + (0.6^2)*(0.4) + (0.6^3)*(0.4) = 87.04%
Time spent in stage 1 per rotation:
((12.5) / (1 + gearhaste%) - 5) * 0.8704 + (15 / (1 + gearhaste%)) * 0.1296
Time spent in stage 4 per rotation:
(5) * 0.8704
Using some rough numbers:
0% haste: Stage 1 (8.472s), Stage 4 (4.352s), rotation average 12.824s
20% haste: Stage 1 (6.335s), Stage 4 (4.352s), rotation average 10.687s
50% haste: Stage 1 (4.197s), Stage 4 (4.352s), rotation average 8.549s
Rotation B: AB4 MBAM
The chances of getting a MB proc after x ABs is:
AB# MB%
1 40.00%
2 64.00%
3 78.40%
4 87.04%
5 92.22%
6 95.33%
7 97.20%
8 98.32%
9 98.99%
10 99.40%
So, let's assume that we'll actually shoot AB# + 1, because we're busy chain casting AB, and we don't want to wait and see if we get an MB proc.
78.40% chance of casting after 4
87.04% chance of casting after 5, etc.
Time spent in Stage 1
((12.5) / (1 + gearhaste%) - 5) * 0.7840 + AB4
(2.5 / (1 + gearhaste%)) * 0.0864 + AB#5 that is unhasted
(5 / (1 + gearhaste%)) * 0.05184 + AB#6 that is unhasted
...
I'm not sufficiently bothered to work it out by variables, so I'm going to ask that you trust me enough to have shoved it into Excel, and that the sum component of the ABs after #4 is 1.350secs at 0% haste.
0% haste: Stage 1 (7.230s), Stage 4 (5s), rotation average 12.230s
20% haste: Stage 1 (5.371s), Stage 4 (5s), rotation average 10.371s
50% haste: Stage 1 (3.513s), Stage 4 (5s), rotation average 8.513s
Average # of ABs cast: 4.540
Question for raiders / people with experience at 80:
Once you get a MB proc, typically, will you finish casting your next AB? i.e. if it procs on AB #4, will you finish casting AB #5, then cast AM?
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Fyuu - thanks for pointing that out. That would go onto what I'm essentially calling 'unbuffed haste' or 'gear haste'. Passive haste, basically. Haste isn't multiplicative, so I can just add that onto whatever gearhaste% you get. When I refer to talented cast time reduction, I'm very specifically referring to "Reduces cast time by 0.5 secs" or other such things that get applied prior to haste%.
I'll work on AB3-MBAM next - it should be relatively easy to work out with my Excel sheet at the moment. Right now, I should probably do some work at work :P
Edit: Fyuu - can you tell me what your base AB and AM damage are? No stacks.
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
That's awesome, cheers for that. Just wanted to get a feel for L80 damage numbers so I could calculate rough DPS for rotations.
I'll plug these in tomorrow when I get to work - I left my excel sheet there.
Post by
oberondreaming
Haste isn't multiplicative, so I can just add that onto whatever gearhaste% you get.
This is actually wrong.
Haste from buffs (Wrath of Air Totem, Improved Moonkin Form/Swift Retribution, 2t10) and haste from Talents (Netherwind Presence)
is
multiplicative with haste from gear.
To calculate cast time:
CT' = CT / 1.05 (
WoAT
) / 1.03 (
iMkF
/
SR
) / 1.06 (
NP
) / 1.12 (
2t10
) / (1 + GH*.01)
Where GH is your percent haste from gear.
Cooldowns, like Icy Veins and Bloodlust/Heroism are multiplicative as well and get factored in as a separate divisor in that equation.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.