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My take on Cataclysm and the Timeline
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Post by
Gnub
Holy crap post necros!
Still, it's the same issues that has already been discussed over and over again. Some just havn't read it, but replies by reading the thread-title, and posting their opinions - without real reasoning and disproving of my theories.
Otherwise, its mainly your people were young, cataclysm hits, they become heroes, go battle. Then they hit outland, where you're pretty much mopping up the remaining legion demons and the like (for lore, you're still doing the same quests),
then you go to Northrend to finish off the remaining scourge/vrykul/rebelling blue flight/etc.
Then you go to New Azeroth, and then its modern times and your moving with the timeline.
While seeing the Lich King all the time? If what you say is the case, think about how much is going to get changed in Northrend. Really, try it, it's simply way too comprehensive to simply change. New characters would simply not be fighting against anything.
To illustrate; does Outlands have any clue at all of Illidan being dead when you play through the area now? No? Good, because nothing changed.
Post by
Ignjatwolf
The story will be tidied up in Wow 2 if it ever comes out.So just wait for the new expansion and for god's sake stop arguing with people you don't know over a forum.
Post by
48586
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321140
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48586
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361393
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48586
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Post by
Gnub
So, no offense, but could someone, who knew really a bit more, explain this to me, please! :S
My pleasure.
I'm sorry I havn't noticed that my old gem of a thread had sparked to life again, but better late than never, right? :)
The whole time-line subject caused me to go on another posting spree in the thread "
How Will Cataclysm Affect The Plaguelands ?
", which isn't too long a read. During that thread, I realized a semi-flaw of trying to explain the whole thing, which made me write a blog-post, which I really should've posted here as well. And, just so I said it: Keldoclock, you got it all wrong, but Teurastaja - you're actually quite close.
I can recommend reading it with an open mind, as it's explaining it better than I probably could do at this point, by quoting various of the newest responses to this thread:
http://gnueless.com/2010/03/mmos-and-time-lines.html
Don't worry, it isn't a long read either.
Post by
589079
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Post by
Gnub
First, I think Cataclysm will happen after/during WotLK. But since a lv 1 player can see what cataclysm has done to Azeroth, it changed my mind. I started to get confused... Cataclysm -> TBC -> WotLK ->Cataclysm (?)
Then I speculated something like this...
"As the terrible war against the Lich King continues, the proud defenders of Azeroth fight to secure a lasting peace. But there can be no peace, when the world itself is devoured by rage."
This indicates that it happened during WotLK, but as I've said, a lv 1 player can see Cataclysm, so it also happened before TBC.
How could this be possible?
Indeed, it's one of the "contradictions" that comes up, by marketing something like this. Sadly, it's the easiest way of doing it, and by telling the truth (that is, according to me :P), it would simply be too complex to fit into a few sentences - if you'd want the general audience to understand it too.
Well, my opinion is the timeline which is guarded by Nozdormu has been penetrated/attack by Deathwing during WotLK. The past change, as well as the present time. I's something that we had always try to prevent by doing the dungeons in Caverns of Time.
The present time is altered, as well as the memories of peoples (and of course, players). But it's not all of them.. Some memory resisted it (of those who had played before cataclysm), but many was affected (of those who start playing when cataclysm has come).
It's a nice take on the whole thing. However, I think it's more the case of the characters' personal histories are... insignificant, compared to the overall storyline. Remember that according to the real lore we - the players - are just foot soldiers, and "minions" to the great heroes as Tirion Fording leading the assault on the Lich King, Akama and Maiev finishing off Illidan Stormrage, Onyxia being slain by Varian Wrynn, and other stories like it. It's a bit sad, but it's the way it goes.
The whole things about the lava in Barrens, etc, goblins join the Horde, worgens join the Alliance, are mere alterations of past and present time. So I can say that goblins and worgens join the Alliance/Horde in Vanilla era.
Well, this is just my deduction, can be right or wrong :)
In that part, I totally agree. Glad that someone sees it after all. :) I also notice that you did the exact same post on my original blog-post on the subject, but I found it more fitting to reply here, as it's where the discussion is.
Post by
250582
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Post by
Skreeran
Personally, I think the Cataclysm is like the Ahn'Qiraj event. Vanilla WoW did exist, but you can't do it anymore.
My characters will have been a part of it, in canon, but a new player's wouldn't (unless he chooses to make that a part of their backstory with him actually experiencing it, like I did with the AQ event.)
Post by
589079
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Post by
Gnub
This is the details. :P (I've posted exactly the same in your blog though).
And as promised, I'll reply here, as it is more fitting for discussion. :)
Levels indicate time line. When you go to low level areas, it feels like in the past. Your lv. 55 death knight character still see Arthas in Ebon Hold, though the current lore says he is dead. That's how things work in players' characters perspective. It's why the broken ship Exodar isn't fixed, statues of Kael'thas(maybe?) in Silvermoon are'nt knocked. It's necessary for low level players to experience it. I was just too lazy to explain it. I'm not a native english speaker :P
I'll simplify what you're trying to explain (correct me if I'm wrong):
Assume todays WoW is Cataclysm. You have a character that you created since vanilla (or TBC, WotLK), you leveled it until 80. Then Cataclysm came, you level it until 85.
I created a character during Cataclysm. Of course I had a different levelling experience from lv 1 - 58 (some continents and quest are altered). Then I leveled it until lv 85 too.
Then now we meet. Assume we are roleplaying. Through many conversation, we chat about our past. According to you, Cataclysm started during the invasion to Northrend. But according to me, it started before the Opening of the Dark Portal. (It's a serious time paradox).
This make me think about the anomaly that had ever happened. Remember the novel War of the Ancients? It's Kelthar (or Kalthar? I forgot) an orc shaman who received warning from the spirits. As a bird, he saw the days, nights, months, and years are sucked and thrown.. This also makes sense that the manga Shaman will connect much with Cataclysm event.
My theory also can explain how goblin and worgen death knights will make sense. The time line will have problem, the period in the middle of Vanilla time will be attacked by cataclysm. It makes the goblins and worgens join Horde/Alliance (which should never join any of those faction if Cata doesn't happen). They join them in Vanilla period, and still parts of them until the present time.
It will seems like this (Assume you're roleplaying) :
In a morning you woke up. You got out from the Dalaran inn you were in, and you saw goblins walking around Sunreavers Sanctuary with Horde tabards, worgens were working at Silver Enclave. You asked one of the people around why they are here, looking like members of Horde/Alliance, and they replied you with strange answer. They said they had been parts of Alliance / Horde for a long time, and said that your question is strange.
So far, we agree totally, the minor difference comes with how the timeless-events (in this case: the Cataclysm-event) affects individual characters. Their past experiences would pretty much have to be retconned as well, or - seemingly - simply be as it is. Going into past events never really made any sense anyway, but overall, the storyline doesn't always correspond completely to your characters individual past.
One conclusion: Nozdormu's beloved timeline had been attacked. Krasus and Rhonin had ever do something to prevent something like this in War of the Ancients novel. Imagine if they failed.. Won't it be something like Cataclysm? And this time it seems we will fail to prevent it.
It's ... probably the closest you could get to a real explanation, yes, if one would have to apply it completely to fit everything.
War of the Ancients
was basically, besides a being a nice look into what happened "back then", a way of showing: This is how a retcon can be made perfectly (to an extend, of course) plausible and logical.
And again, this is just my deduction, can be right or wrong :)
That is indeed the way of theories. They can be right or wrong, but not until real facts come to prove or disprove them. Also, that's the fun thing with them.
Post by
532871
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Post by
Adamsm
Actually, it's four years from the end of the Frozen Throne to World of Warcraft.
Post by
532871
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Post by
Adamsm
The official timeline
, actually says RoC only lasted a year, not 3.
Post by
Gnub
Gnub, we've argued a bit in this thread before. Let me try and clear up our debocle. I dont look at story or lore on a "per character" basis like you seem to do.
I actually try to not look at it as from a characters point of view, because that's where it gets paradoxal, when looking at things as "past", "present" and "future". I think impmaster nailed that pretty well in his posts above. It explained why it becomes hard to comprehend, when looking at it through the eyes of that character that you have played properly through Vanilla with.
I look at the lore laid before me as a whole, whether my character has experinced it or not. I see returns to Outland/Northrend in Cataclysm as a training/clean up mission. Nothing more.
Well, in theory, that's what it is... returning to do unfinished tasks. They just often don't make much sense when you have done something "afterwards" that connects to it. As I did earlier, refer to the Drakuru-quests. By going back, you are essentially, going back in time.
Think what you want, as that is what I do. Blizzard thinks this way as well, or they wouldnt even bother with having a damn timeline or having quests reference prior events
I hope no-one has taken it as me not respecting others opinions, and I really hope I havn't come across as that so far (it is, however, very likely to happen during a debate). The problem arises when people attempt hacking and slashing my theory apart, when the arguments are something I can disprove - if they at least try to listen, and follow the logic.
But yes, we'll see eventually how it turns out, and if some
real
contradictions will show up. :)
Post by
589079
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