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Why are Horde more advantageous in lore ?
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Post by
Patty
Why dont you just admit you are wrong instead of resorting to insults?
...I smell irony here, somewhere.
Quit the flaming, quit acting like 9 year old kids fighting over a packet of sweets.
This is supposed to be a discussion thread, not whining and saying crap about other users.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Why dont you just admit you are wrong instead of resorting to insults?
...I smell irony here, somewhere.
Varian hasn't changed his underwear since his arena days, thats what you can smell.
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Enough, all of you. This is a good discussion, let's not get it locked shall we.
Post by
Patty
Enough, all of you. This is a good discussion, let's not get it locked shall we.
Quit the flaming, quit acting like 9 year old kids fighting over a packet of sweets.
This is supposed to be a discussion thread, not whining and saying crap about other users....I'd like to be excluded due to the quoted comment.
Post by
Adamsm
Sorry patty, your excused, but that was just a general broad comment heh.
Post by
Patty
Sorry patty, your excused, but that was just a general broad comment heh.
;D
I hate the flaming and snide remarks plaguing this board lately. I really do. :(
Anyway, back on topic; The Alliance may be at a disadvantage to Horde in some regions and general areas, but the same is true when you flip the other side.
Post by
Adamsm
Aye, the Horde gains a new area in Cataclysm, with the island the goblins shipwreck on, then with the re-vamped Aszhara, increasing their lands quiet a bit in Kalimdor. Kinda strange, as Gilneas is smaller then that area, but still, with the addition of the Worgen city, it will be interesting to see how the northern Eastern Kingdoms change: With Horde taking Southshore, that just leaves Gilneas and Aerie Peak in the north, as Stromguarde and Refugee Point really don't count as actual towns heh.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arkham
She asked him to help her kill Balnazzar.
He agreed on the condition that Capital City would be turned over to him and his troops.
She agreed.
He held up his end and she didn't. It's that simple.Thank you. That's precisely it.
I wonder what would be better... An extremely xenophobic Warlord, leading Lordaeron, or Sylvanas, who actually cooperates with other races and factions, leading the Undercity?"Which would be better" is not the point. I did say he was honest and she was not, but I'm not claiming that Garithos would be the slightest bit better choice to lead Lordaeron.
The point is that this incident shows that the Forsaken aggressed the Alliance first, and not the other way around as it is often depicted.
Post by
lordyoshi01
/creategiantwalloftext
Starting off about the Lordaeron debate, I find that the Forsaken deserve it really. The majority of it's living population was quite low, while the undead population was high, so not really much to say about it belonging to the living, majority rules and all. Then there's the fact that the Forsaken, while only starting out with a bunch of ghouls, banshees, and acolytes, though I think they had a bit more. However that means that they had a bunch of frankly, wimpy troops and had to work for what they got with no necromancers to help, which is saying something for a force of undead. Then using what resources they had, and getting some more from the local population may I add, they fought off three agents of the Burning Legion who were in control of the area, converted one of them to their cause...sort of, and all while being out matched until they used their brains to get the advantage. They used a few banshees to make an army of ogres, bandits, trolls, and a few murlocs, and beat one dreadlord, I know his name but I don't want to make spelling errors and I'm too lazy to look for it. After that they attacked a town filled with the army of the second dreadlord, this time I really forgot his name, and an army of humans, forcing them to have to sneak in and disable the human's before taking on the undead, which took me a few tries to get while playing the WC3 version of this battle. Then with what was left of those humans, they launched a pincer attack against the third dreadlord, who was in control of one hell of an army, and a demon portal. I find that the Forsaken deserve the place for fighting so hard against the Legion to get it.
Getting to the original topic, I find that the Horde is winning more often because of who they are. Fine, they're out numbered, out geared, and beaten tech-wise, though let's see them say that once goblins show up, but the Horde has the sheer awesomeness of themselves to thank for their success.
-Orcs; friggin huge walls of muscle, and that's just the females, who are so awesome, that an orc wearing armor that doesn't even cover him completely and an axe, can take on a human of the same rank, wearing full plate, with a shield and still have it considered a tie. Hell in WC3, I don't know about the first two, but orc grunts, their lowest level fighting unit, has way more health than any other tier one unit, and does great damage, and is like the only tier 1 melee unit in the game for any race that can be used fairly well to win a match with just a massed amount of them and a hero or two.
-Tauren; If orcs are huge walls of muscle, then tauren are titanic walls of muscle, again that's just the women. Honestly, these guys are like, over-powering in the least. They tower above humans to the point where they can crush plate with their bare hands, let alone with a weapon, and there is a reason why they can statistically take more damage than anyone else under the same circumstances; as in same armor, level, and under the same effects.
-Forsaken; These guys are cheat codes for real life, if WoW was real life anyway. These guys can technically be just as good of fighters as orcs or tauren, but don't get tired, don't sleep, don't eat, don't drink, and don't even breath. Stick 'em with a sword, what do they care? So long as it isn't their head or their limb doesn't fall off, their fine. Shoot them, that's even worse than stabbing them! They have the most feared assassins, their mages and warlocks were probably mostly from the Kirin Tor, and seriously, their alchemists are scary good at hurting people. I have no doubt they can take on the pre-wow Alliance, they just don't want to fight the Alliance and the Horde I think.
-Trolls; These guys aren't anything to sneeze at. Trolls can regenerate wounds that would kill most other living things and they're extremely versitile. Seriously how else would they get mages simply cause other people used mages against them. They are quite capable with both divine and arcane magic, that's a pretty impressive thing. Remember, 'Trolls be flippin' out mon!'
-Blood Elves; The Alliance lost out on one of their greatest allys when they drove away the Blood Elves. It was the High Elves who taught humans magic in the first place, and even though it really caught on in the ranks of humans, seriously though, they still made up the a good portion of the best mages. The Alliance lost a great deal of their magical might when the majority of high elves became blood elves. And now the Horde has the power of guys who live well beyond most other races, plus they got pallys now, so that's a win.
The Horde was and is a great military force, since the butchering of the....those blue guys on Draenor, to us handing the Alliance their behinds (usually) in Wintergrasp on a daily basis, I have no difficulty seeing why the Horde is so successful. Not to mention the Horde fights for survival in a world that hates them, they have to be successful, or they will be dead.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
to us handing the Alliance their behinds (usually) in Wintergrasp on a daily basis,That makes no sense, on my server, it's 75/25 for Wintergrasp, during non-peak hours Alliance has it, during peak hours the Horde gets it. Wintergrasp is a battleground, same as AV, WSG, AB so they don't really count.
Post by
lordyoshi01
Hell in WC3, I don't know about the first two, but orc grunts, their lowest level fighting unit, has way more health than any other tier one unit, and does great damage, and is like the only tier 1 melee unit in the game for any race that can be used fairly well to win a match with just a massed amount of them and a hero or two.
Actually its a Warcraft 3 only thing. Orcs weren't that much stronger than humans before, and even like this the orcs in warcraft 3 were reeeeeeally exagerated.
their mages and warlocks were probably mostly from the Kirin Tor,
First of all... there aren't warlocks in the Kirin Tor. The closes you'll find are reckless mages and those would be the blood elves.
Secondly the Forsaken are mostly Lordaeronians. Although there you may find former archmages of the kirin tor within the ranks of Sylvanas', there aren't as many as you think. And if I'm not mistaken, Stormwind's old order of conjurers were more traditional than the mages of Lordaeron, although Dalaran triumphs over both.
They are quite capable with both divine and arcane magic, that's a pretty impressive thing.
You could say the same thing about most races. And soon to be gnomes and dwarves.
The Horde was and is a great military force, since the butchering of the....those blue guys on Draenor
Today's horde can't be compared to yesterday's horde. Both in numbers and practices.
to us handing the Alliance their behinds (usually) in Wintergrasp on a daily basis,
You should remember that game mechanics and many experiences aren't relevant on lore.
Let's see, for the first one about the grunts, i'll give that to you, but like i said i didn't know anything about the first two.
About the second one, yes, there are no locks in the kirin tor, but statistically, most warlocks were previously mages, or shamans in the case of the orcs. Also, you can't forget that the Dalaran was in close proximity to Lordaeron, and was attacked by the Scourge, making it not too far of a streatch to assume that these forsaken who are casters were from the kirin tor in the first place, assuming of course that most mages in the area do come from dalaran, which is more probable than them being rogue wizards due to the amount of forsaken casters there are.
The third thing, about the trolls, is that i find it impressive for them to have divine and arcane power considering how they have no large orders of mages or priests. The Darkspear tribe isn't that big, and while the dwarves, humans, and gnomes do have the capabilities, they also have access to a lot of knowledge about the arcane and the light, what with the church of the light and the tons of aracanists that they have, it isn't much for them to get access to it. The Darkspears on the other hand were at a disadvantage considering they were isolated from outsiders for a while. The blue guys don't even count due to them being considered a race born with arcane supremacy and were favorited by those christmas light guys, making them default powerful in the arcane and divine. Night elves don't count seeing as they have little arcane ability due to the majority of their casters being high borne, and thus were seperated from the night elves a long time ago. The horde races of the orcs and tauren are also out of the comment as they are mostly divine casters, with the orc warlocks being a fluke caused by the Burning Legion, but they were originally just divine casters.
High/Blood Elves are same as humans in that they have a deep tradition in magic, and the light, which came from their relationship with humans. Trolls have no connections like the other races, other than their connection to their vodoo anyway, but arcane isn't really a tradition or easy for them to get access to learning about. So that's what i find amazing about them.
For the fourth thing, yes you can't compare them to anything other than name, however the original poster talked about the horde's success in lore, which includes all lore about the horde as i see it. Other than that, you are quite correct on that.
The fifth thing, you're absolutely right, however that thing about wintergrasp was a joke on my end frankly.
Edited for grammer.
Post by
lordyoshi01
to us handing the Alliance their behinds (usually) in Wintergrasp on a daily basis,That makes no sense, on my server, it's 75/25 for Wintergrasp, during non-peak hours Alliance has it, during peak hours the Horde gets it. Wintergrasp is a battleground, same as AV, WSG, AB so they don't really count.
It really depends on your server, so your mileage may vary based on your server, but yeah it was a joke on my end, I did put that (usually) in there so it isn't a definite, Horde always wins thing. I only put that there cause I couldn't think of something clever.
Post by
Adamsm
For the fourth thing, yes you can't compare them to anything other than name, however the original poster talked about the horde's success in lore, which includes all lore about the horde as i see it. Other than that, you are quite correct on that.The New Horde Orc's, for the most part, feel horrible about the genocide that went on during the Draenor war with the Draenei. They don't see that as an advantage, but as a very dark time in their past, when they threw everything they truly cared about and honoured to the wind and let themselves be turned into beasts of death and destruction.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lordyoshi01
have divine and arcane power considering how they have no large orders of mages or priests.
Troll priests are actually practicioners of their Loa religion. Lorewise they are all Shadow Priests.
And in fact, the Zandalar, first tribe of trolls are proficient with arcane magic and divine as well. You shouldn't understimate the Zandalar knowledge on lore.
but statistically, most warlocks were previously mages, or shamans in the case of the orcs. Also, you can't forget that the Dalaran was in close proximity to Lordaeron, and was attacked by the Scourge, making it not too far of a streatch to assume that these forsaken who are casters were from the kirin tor in the first place,
I believe that in the end the Undercity developed an Arcane "High School" of its own, the Mage Quarter (gosh, quarter of a capital city just for magicians?). And you're probably right when you say that most mages either came or studied in Dalaran. But you shouldn't understimate the number of rogue wizards (bandits and such, we see them everywhere) and Dalaran's population insignificance when compared to the millions of lives taken in Lordaeron.
Yes, priests to the Loa spirits, however that is still considered as a divine practice, even shadow priests are considered to be divine casters, they just don't have shiny lights to go along with their spells. Also when I said trolls, I was talking about the Darkspear tribe exclusively, however I have no doubts on what other troll tribes are capable of.
As for the forsaken casters, I have no doubts that the magic quarter trains new mages and warlocks, however keep in mind, that all of forsaken are 'awakened' from scourge soldiers, seeing as that is how forsaken are born. As a result most forsaken casters would usually already know magic prior to their undeath, otherwise they'd just be trained to become regular soldiers, or even become just normal workers, seeing as the forsaken probably have things better to do than to train peasants in the arcane arts when it's easier to give them a sword and point them in the right direction. I read somewhere on wowwiki that Sylvanas attempts to make awakening spell casters their main priority, however I cannot find the page where it says that so feel free to speculate on the truth of it or to try to find it yourself. Anyway, when you make a forsaken, you are assumed to have just been awakened, as a result you begin as the class that you were in life, though of course in game stuff doesn't count for much.
Also, you are right, there are a lot of rogue wizards, so it isn't far fetched to assume they didn't become forsaken, but in Lordaeron, pre-scourge, I assumed that the majority of the population was non-magical, seeing as Dalaran is just a few weeks walk from the farthest point in Lordaeron. Bandits, even in-game, are largely non-magical, but i do understand where you are coming from. Either way, even those rogue wizards probibly were ex Kirin Tor, or learned from them, so it would be technically true, though it is stretched from the original meaning.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Troll priests are actually practicioners of their Loa religion. Lorewise they are all Shadow Priests.
One name springs to mind when you say this. Zabra Hex, the troll priest learning holy magics wasn't it from the scarlet monistary?
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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