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Lady Proudmoore - Delusional or intuitive?
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Post by
Adamsm
So, lets count up Jaina's acts of treason (I don't want to hear someone say this is not betrayal, it is in my eyes, and I'm the one making this dissision.)
*Let her own city to be purged
*Have Garona being released from captivity
*Teleported Varian in the middle of the fight
*Allowed my alt to be killed because she is passive
*Does not pay any attention to the human corpses in Undercity
*Has not made any moves to reclaim Lordaeron (Again, I don't care about your opinion "Stormwind has no claim, blahblahbalh", this is MY opinion, not open for disscussing right now)
*Has taken no action against the attacks from the Horde.I just have one thing to say here: Just because Captain Rageaholic thinks he's the Alliance warchief, doesn't mean he is; so therefore in the case of Theramore, which most of the Alliance consider to be a capital city in it's own right, would mean that Proudmoore has the same standing as Varian, Tyrande, Magni and Velen.... so it's not treason, as unless all of the Alliance factions come together, they can't actually try another leader.
Post by
Skreeran
*Let her own city to be purgedBecause she couldn't do it herself, and she understood that it was her father who was in the wrong.
*Have Garona being released from captivityIn her defense, it was Maraad who broke her out. She didn't release her.
*Teleported Varian in the middle of the fightAnd saved his butt in the process.
*Allowed my alt to be killed because she is passiveGameplay≠Lore
And she does fight the Horde. She's a raid boss who will attack the Horde.
*Does not pay any attention to the human corpses in UndercityNeither did Varian. He said nothing about corpse.
*Has not made any moves to reclaim Lordaeron (Again, I don't care about your opinion "Stormwind has no claim, blahblahbalh", this is MY opinion, not open for disscussing right now)Neither did Tyrande, I suppose you hate her too?
*Has taken no action against the attacks from the Horde.Not that you know of. Not everything is done out in the open with a battle. Jaina's a much more subtle person, who tends to handle things diplomatically rather than with knee-jerk wars.
And I know you said you didn't want that to get discussed, but sorry, if you put up all the reasons you hate her, and I disagree, I should be allowed to defend her. What if I listed all the reasons I hate Varian (and I don't really hate
him
, just his policies) and said it wasn't up for discussion?
- Jaina Proudmoore will shape up and realize the threat the Horde could pose, and neutralize it with Varian's help, and she will go back to the Jaina I knew and respect from WC3 who acctually cared about her people.By that logic, Garrosh is a hero for recognizing the threat the Alliance could pose, and Thrall should shape up and help neutralize it.
- Jaina Proudmoore will follow a impossible peace, and commit treason act #8, thus going out of the way for the Horde again.Jaina does care about her people.
That's why she doesn't want them to die in a pointless war.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I mean, first off, we would have to show her being forced to fight the Horde in some way because they prevoked her, or somthing like that to make her neutrality leader go away... and don't hassle me on this, a neutral leader sucks. I have seen some of your opinions about Thrall being neutral rumors >.>
That arn't gonna happen, because if you missed the comic of theramore (which was posted by skeeran) it shows clearly Jaina's friendship with Thrall remains true, and it was her actions that gave the horde a chance to thrive in the first place. Your hoping to turn her into a Varian sympathizer more then anything, and her developed character is beyond his petty warmongering.
I was also very impressed with her new model, now she won't look so out-dated standing next to the shining Varian.
It seems only the Alliance leaders get to look cool. :l
Makes up for a lot of their lack of character.
And really, if it wont kill Blizzard, make Jaina say somthing like "For the Alliance!" just once, she seems more likely to say "For the Horde!"
So, lets count up Jaina's acts of treason (I don't want to hear someone say this is not betrayal, it is in my eyes, and I'm the one making this dissision.)
Theres a reason she's counted as a neutral figure. She faught and did more for azeroth then you give her credit for, and now dismiss it out of varian loving.
*Let her own city to be purged
Her father showed his insane bigotry he couldn't let go and his followers stood with him. The other ones Thrall and his troops didn't kill out of respect to Jaina.
*Have Garona being released from captivity
What skeeran said.
*Teleported Varian in the middle of the fight
Saving his worthless hide (or chin) more like it, with having 2 faction leaders and an army of orcs heading for them, she saved his life that day, even when he made the first move.
*Allowed my alt to be killed because she is passive
What?
*Does not pay any attention to the human corpses in Undercity
A varian sympathizer criticizing another character of not paying attention to things around them? The irony..
*Has not made any moves to reclaim Lordaeron (Again, I don't care about your opinion "Stormwind has no claim, blahblahbalh", this is MY opinion, not open for disscussing right now)
You opened the discussion, you don't get to choose if someone does or doesn't comment on it. And Jaina has nothing to do with lordearon since she's smart enough to know it belongs to the forsaken instead of king chin.
*Has taken no action against the attacks from the Horde.
Because she, unlike Varian, can see the larger picture, well he can only see things at short range.
- Jaina Proudmoore will shape up and realize the threat the Horde could pose, and neutralize it with Varian's help, and she will go back to the Jaina I knew and respect from WC3 who acctually cared about her people.
She does care about her people. Infact I'd say she cares more about her people then Varian does, because unlike Varian who senselessly wants to cause more bloody and pointless warfair when were are real threats to deal with, Jaina on the other hand wants to tackle these threats, as she's doing with the lich king, as she did at hyjal.
She's smarter then Varian, and won't come down to his level.
- Jaina Proudmoore will follow a impossible peace, and commit treason act #8, thus going out of the way for the Horde again.
Seriously, stop being the Horde's side-kick, and give the Horde a sweep-kick :)
If Jaina fails to shape up, she can go lick Hogger's donkey doddle for all I care.
Thats the thing with being neutral.
Is someone like Tirion counted as a traitor too, because he sides with horde and alliance? Maybe dalaran are traitors too for the same reason? Or maybe the cinarion circle?
Jaina stands as a representative for forming a peace between horde and alliance in times of great war, and she does a great job of it.
Anyways, I have decided to go sit on a fence with Jaina's character for now.
Lets see how this plays out...
So, ya, I take back what I said about me not ever liking Jaina again... but she has a very thin leash with becoming a character I like, one mistake will destroy this chance forever.
I'm pretty sure if she saw some of the stuff you posted she'd not care about becoming something you liked.
Post by
Patty
TL;DR
Jaina is given less credit than is due by some users. Azeroth owes a lot to Jaina, including Varian's return iirc.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, it's funny, but my RP family, the Martin's, don't really like Proudmoore yet here I am defending her.... meh oh well.
Post by
Skreeran
All my RP characters are Horde or come from a traditionally Horde race. They
love
Jaina.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Thanks Bruce, that was a refreshing bit of logic in a sea of subjectivity and emotion... :P
Post by
324669
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Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
(I don't want to hear someone say this is not betrayal, it is in my eyes, and
I'm
the one making this dissision.)
Are you guys blind, or just delusional?
You realize of course, your posting it on forum.... did you really expect no one to answer it? If so......
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Did you ever stop and think mabye
your
the one with short-range view, and that mabye you should look at things from us Varian fans' point of view?
After reading the comics, I tried to do this, but I still found myself not liking Varian.
Screw the Forsaken, most citizen make up the Scourge, Forsaken and human survivors are the other half put togheter.
And, yes, she has somthing to do with it seeing as how its citizens are part of Theramore.
Sylvanas does not deserve, expicialy since she uses it to destroy humanity from it.
I'm not sure what you're getting at in the first line of that statement. Do you mean that the Scourge should control all of Lordaeron?
You've got a point on the second line though. She does have something to do with Lordaeron, but that's in the past. Jaina and her people have moved on from Lordaeron.
I don't care much for Sylvanas either, personally, but I think she lays more claim to it, simply because of possession. Sure, if it was entirely in Alliance hands, I'd give you this argument, but it's not.
The bloody hell she does, neraly all of the citizenary wants her to stop summiting with the Horde.
Forgive me if I don't see this as the case, unless you can provide a good source. I've seen nothing of this idea anywhere, then again, I don't know Alliance-side quests.
Saying Varian does not care about his people further confirms how helplessly biased you are.. but then again, we already knew that.
Varian acctualy listens to what his people want, and gives the Horde a audinece at the same time.
Stormwind does not want peace with the Horde, I think after 2 failed peace summits, Varian made the right choice. And thats why the soliders in Northrend love him.
I agree with you that Varian cares very much about his people, and that his soldiers love him. But, the fact remains that he's refusing to listen to his advisors in the idea that the Horde has changed.
I can understand him making a personal conflict out of this, even if you don't think he is, but not listening to ones advisors is not very becoming of a leader.
Jaina is not neutral, and thats the thing.
But, just because she's not neutral doesn't make her bad for wanting peace. Malfurion is supposed to be working with Thrall in Mount Hyjal, does that make him a traitor? He's not a member of the Cenarion Circle either, Fandral heads up that organization.
Jaina is a horrible diplomat, btw. Always never knowing what to do, and running away hoping the problem solves itself.Well, hold two failed peace summits doesn't necessarily make one a horrible diplomat. You need to look at the circumstance surrounding both events. Both were interrupted due to some unforeseen outside force. And I don't see where you're getting that she's run away from her problems...
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Screw the Forsaken, most citizen make up the Scourge, Forsaken and human survivors are the other half put togheter.
And, yes, she has somthing to do with it seeing as how its citizens are part of Theramore.
Sylvanas does not deserve, expicialy since she uses it to destroy humanity from it.Like HiVolt, I don't understand your first line.
Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken simply because it's their land. It was theirs when they were alive and it's theirs now that they're undead.
And who says the citizens of Lordaeron want Lordaeron back? (They seems pretty happy in Theramore with Jaina). Who says they should get it instead of the Forsaken? After all, it was the Forsaken that drove the Scourge out of the land and dredged out the city. If it weren't for them, it'd still be covered in Scourge. The Forsaken have fought to keep it safe, and considering it's their land in the first place, it's only fair that they keep it.
As for Sylvanas, she's the leader of the Forsaken, who do deserve it.
Did you ever stop and think mabye your the one with short-range view, and that mabye you should look at things from us Varian fans' point of view?Yes, I have. I agree the Varian loves
his people
and his people alone. He could care less whether the orcs live or die. Actually, I take that back. He does care what happens to them. He wants them dead, or at the very least imprisoned.
The bloody hell she does, neraly all of the citizenary wants her to stop summiting with the Horde.Lol? No... There's a
few
deserters who want to go back to fighting the Horde, but they have almost no power in the city, and have in fact been almost entirely kicked out.
Those same deserters are partially responsible for the burning down of the Shady Rest inn, by the way.
Stormwind does not want peace with the Horde, I think after 2 failed peace summits, Varian made the right choice. And thats why the soliders in Northrend love him.Two peace summits that the Horde had nothing to do with in the failing.
And again, two interrupted summits is not enough to say "Screw peace, let's get thousands of people killed!"
Jaina is not neutral, and thats the thing.Well really, she can be as neutral as she likes. Theramore is it's own city-state, and the rest of the Alliance can't tell them what to do or who to fight.
Jaina is a horrible diplomat, btw. Always never knowing what to do, and running away hoping the problem solves itself.Ha! Again!
Imagine if it was Varian that Medivh summoned...
Medivh: And to stop the Burning Legion, the Horde and Alliance must work together.
Varian: No way! I've already had like, two entire peace summits with these guys fail, I'm going to %$#@ing war, baby! *attacks Thrall*
Archimonde: OM NOM NOM
Post by
Adamsm
I have no idea where everyone is getting the Thrall and Malfurion at Hyjal idea, I think it was just a guess made by someone.The fact that Ragnaros is attacking the reborn World Tree.......
Anyways, one advisor he listens to is Anduin, whom got him to go the first time, but Anduin has clearly never been told about the First and Second wars...He knows, but he's not hung up about it like his father is. He can tell the difference between the Old and the New Horde.
Like how she let Arthas kill everyone in Stratholme because she could not stand up for her self, I was shocked at how she let Arthas forced her to do whatever he wanted.
She just cant stand up for herself.
She has no passion, no will, and no commanding presence.So, Uther was weak as well because he walked away instead of knocking Arthas on his arse?
Post by
Skreeran
What I meant was that 50% of Lordaeron's people should be Sourge, 25% Forsaken, and 25% human survivors.But that's not how it is...
It's closer to 80% Scourge, 15% Forsaken, 5% Survivors.
I don't mean the Scourge should control all of Lordaeron, but the people who say the Forsaken deserve it all should saying this if its the point they want to make.But the Forsaken make up greater numbers than the survivors AND they were the ones who fought to drive the Scourge out.
Yeah, I understand where you guys think it should all go to the Forsaken, but Sylvanas promised Garithos the city, and if she is going to cross the Alliance, then I am proud to have a leader who is going to make her pay interest... in blood.So now you turn it back to Garithos being Alliance? In that case, the prince of the Blood Elves was sent on a suicide mission by him and then sentenced to death when he completed it.
I'm glad to have a leader who made him pay... in blood.
The Theramore deserters are wandering around freely in the city promoting to pick off where Admiral Proudmoore left off (Don't think for a second I agree with them), and the guards and citizens just ignore then an let them campain freely.Not really... Most of them have been kicked out.
If you saw a orc warlock in Orgrimmar promoting to join the Shadow Council, or a Defias Brotherhood rogue promoting people to join thier group, then they would likley be attacked.You mean like the Scarlet Crusade recruiter in Stormwind? Oh snap!
Besides, hardly anyone is listening to them, and Stormwind even sent a spymaster to help deal with them.
<Calia chuckles as you describe the guards' reactions to the propaganda.>
Just as I'd hoped! I think it's safe to say any deserter agents who try to infiltrate Theramore will be laughed right out of town!
I assume this advisor you speak of is Jaina, because no one from Stormwind has questioned him (Except Prestor, but I don't think she counts).Well, there's Velen. I've sure if Blizzard actually let him do anything he'd be questioning the crap out of this war, perhaps even withholding troops. He didn't fight until it was absolutely necessary in the Draenor war, I doubt he'd do it in Varian's War.
Anyways, one advisor he listens to is Anduin, whom got him to go the first time, but Anduin has clearly never been told about the First and Second wars...Lol... Of coruse he knows about the First and Second wars. He also seems to remember that it was the Defias who killed his mom, not the orcs, and the fact that someone of Orcish blood saved his life.
Anyways, I really think Varian was wrong at the peace summit, in a few ways. He should have listened to the others, but if the president was almost killed twice while on a peace summit to Iraq, I would not really trust him if he felt tempted to go again.If it was Americans who downed Air Force one on the first one and a combination of former American, United Kingdom, Soviet and Iraqi soldiers that interrupted it, it would be just as foolish to say "Okay, I guess peace isn't happening. Let's bomb this little s***hole!"
I have no idea where everyone is getting the Thrall and Malfurion at Hyjal idea, I think it was just a guess made by someone.Confirmed at Blizzcon!
Pwned!
Striving for peace when things go like they are now, however is another story.Striving for War when things are like they are right now is downright stupid.
Malfurion and Thrall are more then willing to fight for thier people's freedom, and are able to keep thier allegiences to a minimum.Varian, however, is apparently not.
Next thing you know, Cho'gall is going to attack Theramore because Jaina is letting the New Council do what ever they want, and drag her into it.This makes no sense.
Like how she let Arthas kill everyone in Stratholme because she could not stand up for her self, I was shocked at how she let Arthas forced her to do whatever he wanted.She couldn't attack the Prince of Lordaeron. Uther was there too, and he's not a terrible person for not being able to stop Arthas.
She has no passion, no will, and no commanding presence.She saved my butt in Pit of Saron, twice, and one-shotted my shaman for 33k. I'd certainly say she has a commanding presence.
Deference and meekness are not traits to be hated. They have their place. And she brings the pain when the time comes for that.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
What I meant was that 50% of Lordaeron's people should be Sourge, 25% Forsaken, and 25% human survivors.
I don't mean the Scourge should control all of Lordaeron, but the people who say the Forsaken deserve it all should saying this if its the point they want to make. The thing is that the population isn't shifted in the way you think it is. If anything it's 50% Forsaken, 25% Scourge, and 25% Human Survivors.
Yeah, I understand where you guys think it should all go to the Forsaken, but Sylvanas promised Garithos the city, and if she is going to cross the Alliance, then I am proud to have a leader who is going to make her pay interest... in blood.I get what you mean here. Personally, I don't care. But, I still have to say that possession of the land counts as ownership, regardless of who it was promised to years ago. The fact remains that it is the Forsaken's land, and they're allowed to do what they want with it.
The Theramore deserters are wandering around freely in the city promoting to pick off where Admiral Proudmoore left off (Don't think for a second I agree with them), and the guards and citizens just ignore then an let them campain freely.
If you saw a orc warlock in Orgrimmar promoting to join the Shadow Council, or a Defias Brotherhood rogue promoting people to join thier group, then they would likley be attacked.
Again, a good point, on the latter argument. And Jaina should take action against the deserters. Then again, there are a bunch of people in the game who should take action against certain things and they don't. I think this is just going on gameplay mechanics really. And we all know those need not tie into lore.
I assume this advisor you speak of is Jaina, because no one from Stormwind has questioned him (Except Prestor, but I don't think she counts).
Anyways, one advisor he listens to is Anduin, whom got him to go the first time, but Anduin has clearly never been told about the First and Second wars... Actually, the advisor I was referring to was Valeera. I'll try to find the page amongst my comics and post a picture of the particular panel I'm talking about.
Anyways, I really think Varian was wrong at the peace summit, in a few ways. He should have listened to the others, but if the president was almost killed twice while on a peace summit to Iraq, I would not really trust him if he felt tempted to go again.
Same probobly goes for the people of Stormwind. I understand what you mean, but if the hostile action is made by third-party groups, I'd call for a peace summit at a more secure location, like maybe Dalaran or Shattrath.
I have no idea where everyone is getting the Thrall and Malfurion at Hyjal idea, I think it was just a guess made by someone. It's all over the Cataclysm forum and it's in the info that Blizz released about Cataclysm. And I'm not talking about the speculation that came out a couple weeks before BlizzCon, I mean the actual news from BlizzCon.
Malfurion and Thrall are more then willing to fight for thier people's freedom, and are able to keep thier allegiences to a minimum.The thing is, we don't know how closely they will be working with one another. For all we know, Malfurion's Night Elves and Thrall's Orcs might end up coming out of this with a full-on Alliance.
Jaina, on the other hand, is letting anyone do what ever they want most of the time.
Next thing you know, Cho'gall is going to attack Theramore because Jaina is letting the New Council do what ever they want, and drag her into it. Well, technically, Cho'gall already attacked Theramoore, and the attackers were beaten away, with Jaina's help no less.
I was not reffering to the peace summits, I was reffering to other things.
Like how she let Arthas kill everyone in Stratholme because she could not stand up for her self, I was shocked at how she let Arthas forced her to do whatever he wanted.
She just cant stand up for herself.
She has no passion, no will, and no commanding presence.
Somthing a good leader should have, in my eyes
In case you forgot, Uther was there too, and he was certainly capable of standing up for himself, yet he did the same thing Jaina did, just walked away.
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