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Can You Still Raid as a BM?
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Post by
littleramon
Hi There! So what do you think BM in or out? I know right now the "best" spec would be a Survival spec, but I've seen on Elitist Jerks a post called "Raiding as Beast Mastery in 3.1". Now here it is 3.2, would you accept a Hunter that was BM spec? How's their DPS looking.
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Post by
Vriaeliss
lol, I have yet to meet a SV or MM hunter in similar gear that has been able to pull more than 200 more dps than my BM spec (that's with the 3% extra dps I'm adding to theirs and the rest of the raid)... heck, I've even out-dps'd others on Patchwerk, pulling upwards of 4.4k dps on average on him (single target no boss-related damage buffs).
Now, the ones I raid with know what they're doing too, so it's not like I'm running with huntards. I think the problem with a lot of BM hunters is they don't know pet management that takes a lot of experience and dedication to the spec. Also learning to time your shots and is important, but a lot of it is gemming and getting stats that will go right to your pet (AP ftw!). Most hunters ignore how to best buff their pets, so if they try BM, guess what? They'll pull craptons less dps than other specs. BM is ~60% hunter dps, 40% pet dps... so ignoring what works best for your pet is like forgetting a move that does 40% of your dps!
I just respeced like all other hunters, and I'm giving catlike reflexes a try (not too hopeful, but maybe will be increase). Otherwise points going back into filling Imp. Tracking and 1 into Survival Instincts, but here's a link to my armory:
Merid on Thunderhorn
But seriously, all it will take for BM to get raid respect is enough people who are good with the spec and not jus looking to jump the next bandwagon spec just 'cause people online say to! Just look at disc priests, pre-Ulduar we were laughed at as raid healing spec, now strongly desired to have one for MT heals... just takes time and good players ^_^
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367590
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Post by
Vriaeliss
Very true. Even at say 500dps lower than a SV hunter, if rest of raid is doing say 3k average w/o my buff, in 10-man that's 450 raid dps increase (assuming 5 dps), so mild loss. If your group's good enough for only 2 heals, then it's an even wash. In 25-mans though, I've 500dps lower and 17 dps getting my buff averaging 3k, that's an extra 1530 raid dps, waaaay better than the measly 500 more dps I could be doing as SV/MM.
Anyway, in most cases your dps will be pulling much higher than 3k average, and I tend to pull 3.3-3.5k in 10-mans, 4k+ in most 25-mans, so I can't find a feasible reason why, particularly if you decided to add that raid dps boost to mine, BM is remotely worse than SV/MM :P
Oh, I know! Recount doesn't take that into account and too many too eager to be "chart topping" dps and not willing to help their raids with utility.
Post by
Meldiren
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#ctbMztxRwu0eRt0eVoZx:VifMz0
use this, a BM hunter in my guild with pvp gear pulls 4k
On what bosses? Or is that on trash? After looking at the spec, with no points in improved arcane, I highly doubt that. I have yet to see a BM hunter pull 4K anywhere, including on trash pulls. And I have seen a ton of them in 25 man raids. I pull 7-8K on trash pulls often, and have not been under 5K on patch the last 4 times (my last one was 5.5K). And I am not geared.
He may pull 4K on Loatheb, or Thaddius, both gimmicked fights. I want to see his PATCHWERK numbers.
Post by
Meldiren
lol, I have yet to meet a SV or MM hunter in similar gear that has been able to pull more than 200 more dps than my BM spec (that's with the 3% extra dps I'm adding to theirs and the rest of the raid)... heck, I've even out-dps'd others on Patchwerk, pulling upwards of 4.4k dps on average on him (single target no boss-related damage buffs).
Now, the ones I raid with know what they're doing too, so it's not like I'm running with huntards. I think the problem with a lot of BM hunters is they don't know pet management that takes a lot of experience and dedication to the spec. Also learning to time your shots and is important, but a lot of it is gemming and getting stats that will go right to your pet (AP ftw!). Most hunters ignore how to best buff their pets, so if they try BM, guess what? They'll pull craptons less dps than other specs. BM is ~60% hunter dps, 40% pet dps... so ignoring what works best for your pet is like forgetting a move that does 40% of your dps!
I just respeced like all other hunters, and I'm giving catlike reflexes a try (not too hopeful, but maybe will be increase). Otherwise points going back into filling Imp. Tracking and 1 into Survival Instincts, but here's a link to my armory:
Merid on Thunderhorn
But seriously, all it will take for BM to get raid respect is enough people who are good with the spec and not jus looking to jump the next bandwagon spec just 'cause people online say to! Just look at disc priests, pre-Ulduar we were laughed at as raid healing spec, now strongly desired to have one for MT heals... just takes time and good players ^_^
then run one with me, because I will beat you by a full 1K. Guaranteed. I pull over 3K in 5 mans. including the new TOC
Post by
Meldiren
I'm a lowbie hunter. But wouldn't the extra 3% dps make it useful to have at least one BM hunter in the raid? Or is there some other class's buff that over-rides it?
I mean 3% across what? ~20 people. That easily brings the added dps up to like ~ +2400 dps, if not more?
(assuming everyone does 4k dps)
If I am doing 4K dps in a 25 man, I am having a very crappy day. I plan on breaking the 6K ceiling this month on my hunter (just need to re-gear a few items) and get a better weapon.
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269245
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Post by
Meldiren
lol, i cant wait to see when BM comes out on top again then it will be all the MM and surv guys saying the same thing us BM guys are. damn i miss BC days of raiding.
I was BM right up until the nerf in 3.0.8. Loved it. Still have Nuramoc in my stable. But I wanted to be able to REALLY help my guild in naxx. So I went SV. And honestly, I like it every bit as much, except for not being able to pull out my exotics. I would like to see BM be "competitive" in raids, like MM is now.
I do far more DPS and Damage now, than I did as BM. I tend to carry most raids, heroics, that I am on. Occasionally, a well geared good lock or mage or DK will give me a run (I have an extremely well geared DK in my guild, that pushes me every raid). But as my gear gets better, I pull farther ahead. And I am still using a 129 DPS bow (have yet to have a good one drop). Once a get a great weapon, it will be all over.
Post by
catlady
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#ctbMztxRwu0eRt0eVoZx:VifMz0
use this, a BM hunter in my guild with pvp gear pulls 4k
On what bosses? Or is that on trash? After looking at the spec, with no points in improved arcane, I highly doubt that. I have yet to see a BM hunter pull 4K anywhere, including on trash pulls. And I have seen a ton of them in 25 man raids. I pull 7-8K on trash pulls often, and have not been under 5K on patch the last 4 times (my last one was 5.5K). And I am not geared.
He may pull 4K on Loatheb, or Thaddius, both gimmicked fights. I want to see his PATCHWERK numbers.
This is me
Last Patchwerk fight I did 5.1K
That was before I got my tier 8.5 helm, I had the arc-scorched.
These numbers are with poor guild synergy--we didnt even have a shaman running for heroism.
I am STILL ONLY using the Arrowsong
I have never seen a similarily geared SV hunter do more damage than I do. (I only pug VoA though). The most dps a SV hunter in VoA has ever done over me was 500, and he had lots of T8.5 and was using the Siren's Cry.
I am the highest dps in my guild (admittedly, I am one of the best geared)
My dps actually goes DOWN on lothab and thad, since my pet doesnt get the buff. (Compared to the lock & rogue in my guild who pull about 6k in those fights) But I still did 5.4 on Lothab, and 4.6 on Thad
I do the saftey dance in my SV spec (using my bm-enchanted/gemmed gear) and pull about 3.4k. I also use my SV spec for Maly and OS with 2 or more drakes.
I am told their is a website where you can track your highest patch dps. If this is the case, look me up. You will see that I am not lying.
The new BM hunter in our guild (Tutall, an officer alt) pulls over 3k with the Nessingwary 4000 and a mix of heroic, pvp, and 10 man naxx gear. He did over 4k on Lothab last night, and came in about 7th on dps--and he hit 80 only last week.
The other 2 SV hunters in the guild dont put out anywhere near those numbers, though I will admit, they dont know their spec at all--and dont often listen.
I am at an impass, however, since according to the spreadsheet, most of the gear I can get would actually be a downgrade--since I would loose the 7.5 tier pet-damage bonus. I definitely need a new ranged weapon though.
Edit: the biggest problem with BM (other than fights where your pet dies) is that, as your gear transforms, and focuses more and more on things like armor pen, these stats aren't BM-friendly, and dont scale at all to the pet. My damage is good, I think, but there is really no way (aside from a new weapon, and upgrading to new epic gems) for me to make it any better. Hunter loot item level 219+ is generally a downgrade for me. And anything that causes me too loose the 5% pet damage is as well. I have played with the spreadsheet 6 ways to Sunday, and the ONLY upgrades I can see would be: new ranged weapon, and 1 more piece of tier 8.5 loot--but not 2 or I loose my 7.5 set bonus.
However, I have seen SV hunters in this gear, and their numbers have not impressed me. The only hunter I have seen blow me away in a VoA25 was MM. He was also BS/JC. He did over 6k, wheras I was pulling about 4.1
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355869
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Post by
Vriaeliss
I tend to pull 3.3-3.5k in 10-mans
Well thats great but as survival i easily pull that in 5 mans.
So do I honestly. I don't tend to get many 10-mans with decent synergy for AP. Also, our guild's lacking ret pallies, so it's not like the buff's being wasted...
Will you be doing your job the best you can? No!
If you're only supposed job is to top DPS charts, then you're correct.
Will this irritate people - YES!
People? Not most I've run with... I get more remarks of people impressed.
WHY will they make comments about BM? Because when you wipe on a boss that has say 20k health left (and this has happened many times, ive seen it) ... and cost everyone gold for repair, food buffs, potions/scrolls and most importantly time... it irritates the other 24 people in your group.
I've only seen this before when a dps pulls aggro and dies early in a fight. I've never seen it due to the fact a hunter was BM and not SV. Do you specifically know BM hunters slacking and specifically the cause of this? Or overall raid dps too low? Or like I said above, someone dies early (hell, if your SV pet dies early that could make up the 20k). No point in blaming the BM hunter based on spec alone.
Especially when they know that by YOU are having 'fun' playing BM and wiping - but the extra dps from your MM or survival spec would have meant "WIN"!
Mmmmm, WoW = Game. Purpose of game = Fun. If fun = wiping raids on purpose then you suck. If fun = topping dps charts at all costs, go you. If fun = preferred spec, go for it. If someone's pointing too many fingers and blaming raid wipes on you, don't raid with them... a wipe is a raid-wide fault, unless someone has a specific job (decursing, kiting, tanking, killing a specific add (freya's trees)) that they're not doing. If BM is pulling 4k+ in a 25-man raid, that's a good DPS. If BM is pulling 1-2k in 25-man raid, you have problems. Same as ANY OTHER class/spec. It's all about the player first, not the spec. If this is not true, just look at all those huntards in SV spec in Uld 10/25 gear pulling awesome numbers like 2k in raids!
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